WHY Isn't My Chest Bigger!?

Stu was your chest the exact same as when you started after that year or did it grow thicker despite being a weak point of yours?

If someone goes from a 150 lb bench press(8-12 reps) to a 350 lb bench press(reps again) and eats to support growth there is almost no way his chest doesn’t show incredible gains. Being stronger than those around you, but the progression to get stronger is what I’m looking for with him. Progression anywhere if he wants, but I see weight as the nearly unlimited one he can do for years.

Well, of course gaining weight overall will make a huge difference (you have to be gaining overall to have some gains in any area), specifically eating to support any type of growth. The trick I’ve realized is focusing on NOT looking at how much you’re benching, which isn’t so much of an indicator of chest strength, as it is of chest/delt, and tricep strength working synergistically. I recall reading many years ago how Ken Waller had a similar situtation, and that most of his chest development (and if you ask me, he looked amazing) came from doing set after set of various flyes.

To breakdown a recent chest session I did…
Started with cables, focusing on constant tension, and squeezing (dont touch the handles dummy! -lol). Moved next to Low Incline DB presses (30 degrees max, or my shoulders start to help. I perform these non-lockout, yet a good pause/squeese at the top before a slow controlled decent on each rep. I’ve gone as heavy as 140’s, but usually work around 110-120’s in a stricter fashion). Pec Deck with elbow pads (I get a better pump when I dont use the machine with the handles. I try to touch my pinkies when the pads come together, but don’t actually allow the pads to touch as that would eliminate the tension on the chest). Lastly, I did flat BB presses (which I normally don’t do, but wanted to vary things up. I ONLY USED 225, which isn’t a lot - I routinely rep with 275 on the incline - but I did these reallyreally slowly, and kept the bar in constant non-lockout motion).

That was it, and lemme tell you, not only was my chest all puffy and bloated, but I was thoroughly destroyed the next day. If you notice, not only did I do an isolation movement before each compound, but I didn’t focus on moving the most weight possible, Instead, I focused on stressing the muscle I wanted to stress.

S

True and I see what you are going for with that but for a beginner(which you are not but the OP is) if they can’t even bench press 185 fresh, would there be any other priority besides getting basic strength up in key movements(that they can feel the muscle work)? Hell they can do inclines, dumbbell presses, pec deck etc. But if they do the exact same routine, with the exact same weight for the exact same sets and reps for 6 months I don’t see any growth happening.

Get someone to TRY to add 5-10 lbs each week to the bar or machine and 6 months later when they are pressing 90 lbs more of 25 lb heavier dumbbells, near the stack on the pec deck for the same reps and same good form… they will have forced a tremendous overload of the muscle. Sometimes it’s all too obvious that PROGRESSION is the key for the vast majority of bodybuilders, but a lot of people forget that and simply go for a great pump.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
True and I see what you are going for with that but for a beginner(which you are not but the OP is) if they can’t even bench press 185 fresh, would there be any other priority besides getting basic strength up in key movements(that they can feel the muscle work)? Hell they can do inclines, dumbbell presses, pec deck etc. But if they do the exact same routine, with the exact same weight for the exact same sets and reps for 6 months I don’t see any growth happening.

Get someone to TRY to add 5-10 lbs each week to the bar or machine and 6 months later when they are pressing 90 lbs more of 25 lb heavier dumbbells, near the stack on the pec deck for the same reps and same good form… they will have forced a tremendous overload of the muscle. Sometimes it’s all too obvious that PROGRESSION is the key for the vast majority of bodybuilders, but a lot of people forget that and simply go for a great pump. [/quote]

I don’t understand why you think absolute strength is of any importance. There is nothing magic about getting past 185lbs on bench.
Remember for some people there is no interest in how strong they can get. You could easily get strong on the bench without building up any chest development.

Do me a favor then, find all the guys on the pro or national level stage who can’t bench press more than 185 for reps…

Get me some pictures of these massive guys who are weaker than a 16 year old boy and we will talk.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Do me a favor then, find all the guys on the pro or national level stage who can’t bench press more than 185 for reps…

Get me some pictures of these massive guys who are weaker than a 16 year old boy and we will talk. [/quote]

That’s ridiculous, and has nothing to do with what I was saying on growth. I suggested focusing on certain aspects and progressing with them rather than focusing on strength as the main goal. Naturally their progression will bring them above 185lb bench press.

Strength is of the utmost important. Not in the sense of a powerlifting competition, but PERSONAL levels of strength. (How much weight you can rep out to concentric failure, COMPARED TO how much you could do 3 months ago, or 6 months ago, or a year ago)

Does it even need to be stated that we aren’t trying to take our flat bench and bring our elbows in and arch our backs as much as possible to lift more weight one time, while not eating enough to support any growth? Are you TRYING to miss the point?

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Strength is of the utmost important. Not in the sense of a powerlifting competition, but PERSONAL levels of strength. (How much weight you can rep out to concentric failure, COMPARED TO how much you could do 3 months ago, or 6 months ago, or a year ago)

Does it even need to be stated that we aren’t trying to take our flat bench and bring our elbows in and arch our backs as much as possible to lift more weight one time, while not eating enough to support any growth? Are you TRYING to miss the point?[/quote]

And if it’s personal strength then why are you giving out set numbers for benching?

This guy has said his strength is reasonable (and presumably improves) and his chest doesn’t grow. That seems to be the point to me.

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:

That’s ridiculous, and has nothing to do with what I was saying on growth. I suggested focusing on certain aspects and progressing with them rather than focusing on strength as the main goal. Naturally their progression will bring them above 185lb bench press.[/quote]

What other aspects of progression do you think are more important to a guy who can’t press 200 lbs?

Do you really think flaring his elbows out wide as possible(hello shoulder and pec injuries) is going to make the difference for him over getting incredibly stronger over time?

Why don’t you think that the fact that everyone with an impressive (anything) is significantly stronger than they were than the first few months of training is important?

If your gym suddenly threw out all the plates and dumbbells except for 1 Olympic barbell with 1 set of 45s and a pair of 35 lb dumbbells, honestly how much progress are you going to be able to make in that gym size wise NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO?

These aren’t rhetorical, I’d like to see answers to them.

Hey ! Just was looking at some charts of me.

Chest measured around the nipples on 3/1/07 = 41. Same measurment on 9/29/08 = 43.75.

The point is, that everyone here but Scott seems to be missing, is that large increases in poundages on key lifts will equal LARGE INCREASES IN MUSCLE MASS. And this is a bodybuilding forum and we are talking about bodybuilding so expunge all the low 1-5 rep stuff out of your head.

The point is this: no one gives a shit how fancy your routine is if you aren’t adding a lot of iron to the bar over time. Some cat (guy A) who does JUST incline presses and some flat dumbbel presses will have a much huger chest than some other dude (guy B) who does all sorts of exercises, pre-exhaust, burn reps yo, and other shit if guy A is adding a ton more weight to his exercises and guy B isn’t (whether thats from all the volume in his workout not allowing him to progress as quickly as guy B or because he is more obsessed with the pump than actually lifting heavier weight).

Pre-exhaust and flyes and whatever are all great if you have trouble actually feeling your chest work during your presses. Other than that, for a beginner they are pretty much useless in comparison to just doing benching.

This whole obsession with dissecting routines so intricately and “should I give extra squeezes at the top for 2 seconds and what about flaring my elbows or keeping them in or whats the best way to superset chest exercises and I can only bench 180lb but I need a fancy routine with more exercises blah blah blah” is the reason why there is even this thread in existence. It’s the reason why we have people who are 180lb benchin and wondering “what is it that I’m missing?” and thinking that they are so advanced that they even need to be doing anything but lifting hard and consistently and doing the absolute BASICS.

It annoys the shit out of me (which is why this post has turned into a rant). I fucking hate weider and Flex for doing this shit to bodybuilding with “incredible new routine designed to add inches to your guns in 8 weeks; ‘keep the muscles guessing, and you’ll keep them growing’” and a whole slew of other bullshit advice not to mention bogus supplements just becuase they need to fill up their pages with something every month.

Stu - I understand completely your point and it’s a good one, but every newbie is going to read that thinking he needs all those cable and fly movements and he will add all that until he has 5 exercises and never progresses in weight on any of them because “Stu said it’s not about the weight, it’s about feeling the muscle” which is not what you were saying but unfortunately every newbie wants to think he is advanced and needs an incredible intricate program.

Back to my rant - I am so fucking sick of everyone preaching how “strength and size are so different, they are not related and for a bodybuilder strength doesn’t matter yar yarrr”.
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT 1 REP MAX, OR 3 REP MAX.
I especially fucking hate those writers who say, “here’s a set/rep scheme for pure size (5x10 or some other shit), and here’s a DIFFERENT one for size, and strength (because we all know they are different roll eyes) and this’ll be 8x3 because I have these stacks of papers from the new science lab, but don’t worry about me not even looking like a bodybuilder, or that no bodybuilders actually use my methods, I know my shit”.

News report: a 135lb ‘5x10’ workout ain’t gonna build shit.

OP do you want a good chest workout?

Incline Press - 4 sets, i don’t care how you slice it, your last set should be the heaviest weight possible in the 6-10 rep range.

Flat Press dumbbels bars whateveer - ditto, 4 sets last set maximum weight for maximum reps.

Repeat this workout every 4-6 days with the primary and biggest goal of adding weight whenever you can. Adding 100lb on both lifts is the day you will have a bigger chest.

OR, do this:

incline bench - 4 sets
flat bench - 4 sets
db decline - 3 sets
peck dec - 3 sets
cable crossovers - 3 sets

… and you will progress that much slower and have a smaller chest. But hey, at least the pump is the shit, eh?

But of course, not one beginner who reads this is going to like what he hears because they don’t like having to actually simplify things and WORK HARD to lift very heavy weight. That’s fine, that’s ok. Don’t worry about it. Because you can just turn your computer off and flip through Flex between your burnout set of concentration curls.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
True and I see what you are going for with that but for a beginner(which you are not but the OP is) if they can’t even bench press 185 fresh, would there be any other priority besides getting basic strength up in key movements(that they can feel the muscle work)? Hell they can do inclines, dumbbell presses, pec deck etc. But if they do the exact same routine, with the exact same weight for the exact same sets and reps for 6 months I don’t see any growth happening.

Get someone to TRY to add 5-10 lbs each week to the bar or machine and 6 months later when they are pressing 90 lbs more of 25 lb heavier dumbbells, near the stack on the pec deck for the same reps and same good form… they will have forced a tremendous overload of the muscle. Sometimes it’s all too obvious that PROGRESSION is the key for the vast majority of bodybuilders, but a lot of people forget that and simply go for a great pump. [/quote]

On the surface, I agree with you, you need some sort of factor to gauge your progress, However, as the OP is obviously concerned over his strength level vs his lagging physical development, using strength gains may not be the best method (how many younger trainers do you see ‘chasing numbers’ in the gym, and yet depsite ‘moving’ bigger weights over time, look exactly the same?)

I was guilty as well, thinking that as long as I kept getting stronger, eventually it would yield an appreciable mass gain. The best thing I did (and I’m sure a lotta people will disagree with this), was to discard my training log, and not worry about how much weight I was lifting. All I cared about was not doing the same exercises (or exercise order) week after week, and knowing that when I ended a set, it was because there was no way in hell that I would have been able to do even one more rep with decent (not gonna cause an injury) form. After that, I knew it was all about eating well as by body repaired the damage I had done it.

S


I would just like to point out that your chest could be larger than your friends and look smaller. Muscle shape and fat storage play huge roles in the size your chest looks.

I always think of Magnus Samuelson. The guy is massive, seen videos of him repping 600 raw on bench, and to me his chest always looks almost flat.

[quote]Scott M wrote:

What other aspects of progression do you think are more important to a guy who can’t press 200 lbs?[/quote]

Hell it’s been ages since I pressed 200lbs, and within the last couple of months I haven’t cared what weight I am pushing as long as I feel fatigue in the muscle, and I can feel the DOMS the next day ( I don’t go over 10 reps, don’t go under 6). My chest has grown visably. It didn’t grow much when I focused on bench strength.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Do you really think flaring his elbows out wide as possible(hello shoulder and pec injuries) is going to make the difference for him over getting incredibly stronger over time? [/quote]

I’m not suggesting to him not to get stronger. But I do think he would build up a bigger chest doing what I have suggested rather than just focusing on getting his bench as high as possible, assuming he put equal effort into both. I wouldn’t have suggested it otherwise.

I never said I don’t think that is significant. You are putting words into my mouth.
But consider some people drop down the weight they use when they want to increase size rather than strength.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
If your gym suddenly threw out all the plates and dumbbells except for 1 Olympic barbell with 1 set of 45s and a pair of 35 lb dumbbells, honestly how much progress are you going to be able to make in that gym size wise NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO?[/quote]

I’m not suggesting strength isn’t a very important part of progress. I just hate the hard on so many people claiming to be interested in bodybuilding have for powerlifting, and powerlifting training techniques.

Phil Pfister is the same way.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Scott M wrote:
True and I see what you are going for with that but for a beginner(which you are not but the OP is) if they can’t even bench press 185 fresh, would there be any other priority besides getting basic strength up in key movements(that they can feel the muscle work)? Hell they can do inclines, dumbbell presses, pec deck etc. But if they do the exact same routine, with the exact same weight for the exact same sets and reps for 6 months I don’t see any growth happening.

Get someone to TRY to add 5-10 lbs each week to the bar or machine and 6 months later when they are pressing 90 lbs more of 25 lb heavier dumbbells, near the stack on the pec deck for the same reps and same good form… they will have forced a tremendous overload of the muscle. Sometimes it’s all too obvious that PROGRESSION is the key for the vast majority of bodybuilders, but a lot of people forget that and simply go for a great pump.

On the surface, I agree with you, you need some sort of factor to gauge your progress, However, as the OP is obviously concerned over his strength level vs his lagging physical development, using strength gains may not be the best method (how many younger trainers do you see ‘chasing numbers’ in the gym, and yet depsite ‘moving’ bigger weights over time, look exactly the same?)

I was guilty as well, thinking that as long as I kept getting stronger, eventually it would yield an appreciable mass gain. The best thing I did (and I’m sure a lotta people will disagree with this), was to discard my training log, and not worry about how much weight I was lifting. All I cared about was not doing the same exercises (or exercise order) week after week, and knowing that when I ended a set, it was because there was no way in hell that I would have been able to do even one more rep with decent (not gonna cause an injury) form. After that, I knew it was all about eating well as by body repaired the damage I had done it.

S[/quote]

I understand what you are saying Stu, but also keep in mind that you yourself stated that you were benching 315 after only a very short period of lifting, so it wasn’t a strength issue for you, it was a recruitment/muscle dominance problem. I’m going to assume that you got good growth in your triceps or shoulders (maybe both) from your strength increases. Am I right?

So you needed to find ways to get around your natural shoulder/tricep dominance and be able to blast your chest. For that, things like pre-exhaust are great. But for someone who isn’t even benching two plates, I don’t think they need to be worrying about making things more complicated than need be.

Dimitri hasn’t said how much strength he’s gained on the bench, only that he can bench more than his friends (which has nothing to do with how much HE has improved). He did state that he is only benching 70-80kg (155-175 lbs) for 8-12 reps. To me that screams, get stronger.

As far as younger trainers chasing numbers, the ones that I see who actually use good (read: effective) form (and aren’t “maxing” out) are the ones that make the most progress over time. Sure I see people doing 1/4 maybe 1/2 (top) ROM bench and don’t make big improvements in chest size, but I’m going to hope that Dimitri isn’t one of those people. “Moving” more weight (to me) doesn’t mean the same thing as performing an exercise correctly with more weight.

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Do me a favor then, find all the guys on the pro or national level stage who can’t bench press more than 185 for reps…

Get me some pictures of these massive guys who are weaker than a 16 year old boy and we will talk.

That’s ridiculous, and has nothing to do with what I was saying on growth. I suggested focusing on certain aspects and progressing with them rather than focusing on strength as the main goal. Naturally their progression will bring them above 185lb bench press.[/quote]

It has everything to do with what you said.

Bullshit, and Scott called you on it. If there is nothing magical about getting past 185lbs on bench, then why is it that everyone on the pro or national level (with big chests), or heck even anyone on this website can bench considerably more than that? If one never had to get past 185 lbs on bench to build a big chest, then why don’t you see ANY highly developed guys who can’t bench that much?

I’ll add my .02$ to the size vs. strength debate.

I think it makes a lot more sense to use strength as a gage for increases in muscle size.

It’s pretty clear that growing a muscle makes it stronger. The problem when focusing on growth outside of strength, specifically if your body doesn’t look like an anatomy chart, is that small growth is very hard to track.

Who here could tell me the how much the front head of their delts has grown the past year? Anyone? No? How bout if I asked how much you’re military press has increased? That is a much more reasonable question.

Sure you can take picks and track definition or measure in inches, but those are very indirect and are manipulated by fat loss and gain as much as muscle growth.

And that is just on a longer scale, in years. Progresses in strength are measurable in weeks, by exact by pound increments.

To me progress in strength is a much more accurate and precise way to track growth.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ll add my .02$ to the size vs. strength debate.

I think it makes a lot more sense to use strength as a gage for increases in muscle size.

It’s pretty clear that growing a muscle makes it stronger. The problem when focusing on growth outside of strength, specifically if your body doesn’t look like an anatomy chart, is that small growth is very hard to track.

Who here could tell me the how much the front head of their delts has grown the past year? Anyone? No? How bout if I asked how much you’re military press has increased? That is a much more reasonable question.

Sure you can take picks and track definition or measure in inches, but those are very indirect and are manipulated by fat loss and gain as much as muscle growth.

And that is just on a longer scale, in years. Progresses in strength are measurable in weeks, by exact by pound increments.

To me progress in strength is a much more accurate and precise way to track growth.[/quote]

It always has been. The latest new focus on “relative strength” and the attempt to make big bodybuilders appear weak is why so many are confused on this.

You don’t get big muscles without getting stronger. Even if a larger bodybuilder drops the weight they use later on, most have still achieved a strength level that few in gyms will ever come close to.

I mentioned that I dropped the weight on shrugs so I could do more sets…but to use that to say strength doesn’t matter is retarded. I still use more weight than most people I ever see doing that movement and the drop in weight was substituted by greater volume.

Chances are, the big behemoth in the corner is not weak in any way, shape or form. Little guys should just get used to that.

Get stronger, and eat more so that you gain weight and you will get bigger muscles. Period.

I think the other thing is the definition people use of strength. If you add reps or sets, I consider that a strength increase.