[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I don’t think he was really looking for advice, just venting some frustration. We can’t all be Dan Green, lol. All he said is he’s dieting for a meet now, which is not much to go on for giving advice anyway. [/quote]
I’m still curious what you think would work best in this situation. I feel like all we’ve discussed is what won’t work.[/quote]
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote]
I feel like we are not in disagreement about what needs to happen.
Dedicate a significant amount of time and effort toward pursuing your goals.
[quote]Yogi wrote:
^^^OMG, a lean and strong natty powerlifter!
Are you the devil?[/quote]
I was actually going to refer to Ecchastang when talking about being able to stay lean and get stronger/more muscle as I figured I may count as ‘fat’ in Quick Ben’s eyes…and then I forgot.
Having said that I think the OP should probably pay attention to what T3hPwnisher is trying to get across, as although some of us have had much fun debating, it probably hasn’t been overly useful.
You will just have to stay lean through the offseason. If you want to put up good numbers in a meet, you don’t want to start cutting 12 weeks out. That’s when you should be peaking instead.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I don’t have much to add to this, but I just think it’s worth remembering the fact that there is exactly 1 person who looks like Dan Green. And his name is Dan Green. He’s truly an anomaly as a human. Just saying. Although I think Chris Duffin is right up there with him.[/quote]
I was gonna write basically this exact thing. But, while Duffin is a tank, I think the gap between he and Green physically is bigger than most realize. Watched this vid with Stan Efferding where he said Green could get on stage with less than a month of prep at any given time. Dude is yoked out of his skull.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote] I think you are underestimating the human potential. Plus, if you are bulking and you are getting fat, you are doing it too fast. Slow down the bulk. No need to get above 15% bodyfat even on a serious bulk. A bulk means you are trying to maximize muscle growth, not fat growth. Sure there will be a slight amount of fat, but if you do it right, and are careful, that can be minimized.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
This thread is about to become a shithole, but the whole natty being lean + strong is so subjective it’s silly, though I am inclined to go with Quick Ben’s belief, you are going to have to lean towards one end of the spectrum more than the other if natty. [/quote]
What makes you think that someone on drugs who is bulking to maximise muscle growth and strength is going to stay lean when he can consume more calories and progress faster? Do you see many other high profile powerlifters looking like Dan Green? [/quote]
Huh? I think I’m confused by your question? Are you asking examples of other PL’ers who look like Dan green aka big and lean? I mean Jesse norris is pretty lean? I’m not saying you can’t be impressive, but I mean I just don’t think most ppl of average height will be 200+ lbs and really lean.
I mean I don’t think that matters or is bad, but just as a natty it’s good to kind of know you’re ‘lean’ BW just isn’t probably going to hold the size most want. But who cares?
[/quote]
I am saying someone training on drugs near an advanced stage of development is going to have the same problems as a natty when it comes to progress vs leanness. If that were not true, most of the top ranked powerlifters would look like Dan Green. In the end, it all still comes down to training, diet and genetics.
I’m not purposefully getting into a fight with you lol. I just thought this needed to be clarified due to Quick Ben’s nonsensical posts and the fact that the OP is 19 and has enquired about using drugs before.[/quote]
Dan green at gpa worlds vs dan green at RUM is the difference between dan green eating what he wants to eat vs following a diet prescribed to him by mike israetel. He discussed this in one of his videos.
And dan green is on an amount of gear that most people couldn’t even imagine.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote] I think you are underestimating the human potential. Plus, if you are bulking and you are getting fat, you are doing it too fast. Slow down the bulk. No need to get above 15% bodyfat even on a serious bulk. A bulk means you are trying to maximize muscle growth, not fat growth. Sure there will be a slight amount of fat, but if you do it right, and are careful, that can be minimized.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[/quote]
I agree with that, but many are on a bulk gaining muscle and fat at about a 1 to 1 ratio. That in my mind is unacceptable. I have bulked from 151 to about 166 and have gained about 3 lbs of fat in the process. I am certain I am not an anomaly since I didn’t overly count macros or calories, just made sure I was eating adequate protein and that the scale was moving slowly up.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote] I think you are underestimating the human potential. Plus, if you are bulking and you are getting fat, you are doing it too fast. Slow down the bulk. No need to get above 15% bodyfat even on a serious bulk. A bulk means you are trying to maximize muscle growth, not fat growth. Sure there will be a slight amount of fat, but if you do it right, and are careful, that can be minimized.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[/quote]
Once you’ve been lean for a long time, yea. But for someone who has been pudgy for a long time, it’s the opposite. Speaking from experience.
First this. You have not been lifting as long as Dan Green.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Dedicate a significant amount of time and effort toward pursuing your goals.[/quote]
And I’m kind of curious of two things. Maybe your participation in bodybuilding (actual contests) has warped your perception of “lean”. Secondly, maybe cutting while training for pure strength should be a different process than when cutting for a contest. I’m not trying to be snarky or sarcastic here – I think if you try to answer these two questions it could help you a little.
I am saying someone training on drugs near an advanced stage of development is going to have the same problems as a natty when it comes to progress vs leanness. If that were not true, most of the top ranked powerlifters would look like Dan Green. In the end, it all still comes down to training, diet and genetics.
I’m not purposefully getting into a fight with you lol. I just thought this needed to be clarified due to Quick Ben’s nonsensical posts and the fact that the OP is 19 and has enquired about using drugs before.[/quote]
Dan green at gpa worlds vs dan green at RUM is the difference between dan green eating what he wants to eat vs following a diet prescribed to him by mike israetel. He discussed this in one of his videos.
And dan green is on an amount of gear that most people couldn’t even imagine.[/quote]
You are saying an overhaul and meticulous adherence to a diet prescribed by a competent coach led to further progress without sacrificing leanness? I’m not disagreeing with that.
In fact, I think that’s an avenue the OP should choose to explore if he’s willing to make some financial sacrifices.
I am saying someone training on drugs near an advanced stage of development is going to have the same problems as a natty when it comes to progress vs leanness. If that were not true, most of the top ranked powerlifters would look like Dan Green. In the end, it all still comes down to training, diet and genetics.
I’m not purposefully getting into a fight with you lol. I just thought this needed to be clarified due to Quick Ben’s nonsensical posts and the fact that the OP is 19 and has enquired about using drugs before.[/quote]
Dan green at gpa worlds vs dan green at RUM is the difference between dan green eating what he wants to eat vs following a diet prescribed to him by mike israetel. He discussed this in one of his videos.
And dan green is on an amount of gear that most people couldn’t even imagine.[/quote]
You are saying an overhaul and meticulous adherence to a diet prescribed by a competent coach led to further progress without sacrificing leanness? I’m not disagreeing with that.
In fact, I think that’s an avenue the OP should choose to explore if he’s willing to make some financial sacrifices.[/quote]
Well, not really. He was significantly leaner at the second meet, which was based on the fact that he actually had a diet and he’s on a drug combo that would lean anyone out. I’m not disagreeing with what you were saying, really. Just pointing out that looking at dan green only tells you that if you take tons of drugs and control you’re diet, you’ll be lean, even as a powerlifter.
OP is doomed because he’s a Jason blaha fanboy and thus believes that nothing can be accomplished without massive amounts of drugs. This is why he chose to use dan green as an example.
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[/quote]
Once you’ve been lean for a long time, yea. But for someone who has been pudgy for a long time, it’s the opposite. Speaking from experience. [/quote]
Could you expand on this? As a pudgy dude (225 w/ maybe a shadow of outer abs) in my 30s w/ mediocre strength/development, I can’t help but think I should cut again… but the devil on the other shoulder tells me I need to add another 50-75 lbs to my major lifts before I even think about it. Hell, I was 205 a year ago after a 50 lb cut and gained the 20 lbs w/ out even trying, really, and that was after holding 205 for a good 6-8 weeks post cut.
What do you consider an acceptable rate of gain/loss for a former fat bastard? How do you think this changes at different strength levels?
As a slight side note, I had to google Dan Green. Dude is stacked! One of the links was that stupid natty or not site, so I had a gander at it and it said that Dan Green has obviously been using Synthol in his shoulders! Made me chuckle.
Have you tried doing more work, besides the power lifts, when training as a power lifter? Stuff like sled dragging, or the extra workouts the Westside guys do? Not cardio, but more work, leading to more calories burned.
You’ve mentioned doing Madcow before. Isn’t that just 3 days a week?
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[/quote]
Once you’ve been lean for a long time, yea. But for someone who has been pudgy for a long time, it’s the opposite. Speaking from experience. [/quote]
Could you expand on this? As a pudgy dude (225 w/ maybe a shadow of outer abs) in my 30s w/ mediocre strength/development, I can’t help but think I should cut again… but the devil on the other shoulder tells me I need to add another 50-75 lbs to my major lifts before I even think about it. Hell, I was 205 a year ago after a 50 lb cut and gained the 20 lbs w/ out even trying, really, and that was after holding 205 for a good 6-8 weeks post cut.
What do you consider an acceptable rate of gain/loss for a former fat bastard? How do you think this changes at different strength levels?[/quote]
I’m not HeavyTriple, but I know him pretty well IRL. and he gained a significant amount of strength while cutting.
So the devil on your shoulder is kind of a dick, if he’s saying you can’t get significantly stronger while cutting. it’ll just be a process that takes more time than the usual 16 week bulk/8 week cut most people seem to do.
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[/quote]
Once you’ve been lean for a long time, yea. But for someone who has been pudgy for a long time, it’s the opposite. Speaking from experience. [/quote]
Could you expand on this? As a pudgy dude (225 w/ maybe a shadow of outer abs) in my 30s w/ mediocre strength/development, I can’t help but think I should cut again… but the devil on the other shoulder tells me I need to add another 50-75 lbs to my major lifts before I even think about it. Hell, I was 205 a year ago after a 50 lb cut and gained the 20 lbs w/ out even trying, really, and that was after holding 205 for a good 6-8 weeks post cut.
What do you consider an acceptable rate of gain/loss for a former fat bastard? How do you think this changes at different strength levels?[/quote]
I’m not HeavyTriple, but I know him pretty well IRL. and he gained a significant amount of strength while cutting.
So the devil on your shoulder is kind of a dick, if he’s saying you can’t get significantly stronger while cutting. it’ll just be a process that takes more time than the usual 16 week bulk/8 week cut most people seem to do. [/quote]
Well, it’s not exactly apples to apples, given his strength levels and leanness, but I guess that kind of begs the question: Is it better for a life long fatish dude to take the slow and steady approach for years or just cut it and then work on slow and steady gains, given the newb gains are gone? (I still have some of those, too)
At 205, I had clear side cuts and a shadow of upper abs. It could be deceiving though (or maybe just an excuse), because the “old fat cells” may never go away completely w/ out surgery, making it harder to tell. Even at 205, I probably had another 20 to go to be considered “cut,” which is not a goal of mine, but a healthy weight and stronger body are goals.
I guess another detail to consider is age. As my 30s go on, it’s not going to be any easier to lose the fat or gain the muscle, so should I just get the more important goal first, while it’s “easier,” and then chip away at the other? Basically, this is a glorified “bulk or cut” most, haha.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
At 205, I had clear side cuts and a shadow of upper abs. It could be deceiving though (or maybe just an excuse), because the “old fat cells” may never go away completely w/ out surgery, making it harder to tell. Even at 205, I probably had another 20 to go to be considered “cut,” which is not a goal of mine, but a healthy weight and stronger body are goals.
[/quote]
Your ability to honestly evaluate yourself is an advantage. Assuming you are correct and 185 is your lean (beach ready-not stage ready) weight. I would suggest that 200-210 is the range you should maintain during surplus periods. 10-15% over lean weight is the rule of thumb I was taught years ago; and it always worked well for me. 18-24 months at that weight attempting to increase your working (4-8 rep.) weight on some kind of squat, press, O.H. press, pull and row; along with various assistance movements. Then an 8-12 week restricted period until you appear lean enough to walk around with your shirt off at the beach/pool. A minimum level of conditioning is recommended during surplus periods. Never less than 10 calories per pound of BW during a restriction and never more than 20 during a surplus. Always at least 1 gram of protein per pound and at least .5 of fat.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote] I think you are underestimating the human potential. Plus, if you are bulking and you are getting fat, you are doing it too fast. Slow down the bulk. No need to get above 15% bodyfat even on a serious bulk. A bulk means you are trying to maximize muscle growth, not fat growth. Sure there will be a slight amount of fat, but if you do it right, and are careful, that can be minimized.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with anything you have posted. Having said that; I would add that getting a bit pudgy is nothing to be overly concerned about. As I have posted many times, getting lean is the easy part.
[/quote]
Once you’ve been lean for a long time, yea. But for someone who has been pudgy for a long time, it’s the opposite. Speaking from experience. [/quote]
I feel you HT3; however I’m familiar with pudgy. Over the course of thirty years of training I’ve spent significantly more of them smooth than lean. Lean can be achieved at any age…all you have to is eat less and work more. Gaining LBM is another matter altogether…the margin for error and window of opportunity are much narrower. Being satisfied with your size/appearance at a lean weight is a totally different issue
Have you tried doing more work, besides the power lifts, when training as a power lifter? Stuff like sled dragging, or the extra workouts the Westside guys do? Not cardio, but more work, leading to more calories burned.
You’ve mentioned doing Madcow before. Isn’t that just 3 days a week?[/quote]
I don’t follow Westside Methods cause I’m a raw, intermediate lifter.
I do bodybuilding, powerlifting, or strongman assistance exercises after my main lifts.
And yes I was on madcow for 6 months. Made phenomenal progress (about 50lbs on all my lifts). I squeezed everything out of that program and have finally stopped progressing so I moved on to Johnnie Candito’s linear program.