Why I Can't Be Muslim

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rugbyhit wrote:
And give me a break…if you what to look to Hollywood, print-ad in magazines and a boys college dorm rooms for your sense of reality of how women are viewed, that could be a conclusion you could reach. But women in western society enjoy a great amount of liberal social equality. Not perfect, but, as I originally stated, better than the Islamic culture.

In that same vein where do you get your information about Islamic culture? Documentaries, news, or first hand from actual Muslim women and men? I dare say it is probably all based on what you’ve been told to believe by western culture.[/quote]

What difference does it make where I get my information? How come nobody sticks to the point.

Tell me…prove me wrong?please. Where is the provocative proof that the Islamic religion/culture is such a nurturer of womens rights.

Oh and Lixy…
"A Pakistani minister and woman?s activist was shot dead Tuesday by an Islamic extremist for refusing to wear the veil.

Zilla Huma Usman, the minister for social welfare in Punjab province and an ally of President Pervez Musharraf, was killed as she was about to deliver a speech to dozens of party activists, by a ?fanatic?, who believed that she was dressed inappropriately and that women should not be involved in politics, officials said.

Usman, 35, was wearing the shalwar kameez worn by many professional women in Pakistan, but did not cover her head.

The attack happened in Gujranwala, 120 miles southeast of Islamabad, where the minister?s office is based. As Usman, 35, stepped out of her car ? where she was greeted by her co-workers throwing rose petals - the attacker pulled out a pistol and fired a single shot at close range, hitting her in the head. She was airlifted to hospital in the provincial capital Lahore, but died soon afterwards."

[quote]btm62 wrote:
From whence do your delusions come then Pookie?[/quote]

I draw my own conclusions from the evidence available to me.

I also recognize that I might change my mind if presented with more convincing evidence. Something which dogma is quite unwilling and generally unable to do.

So if I have delusions, it is because the evidence from which I’m reaching my conclusions is faulty and/or incomplete. I don’t claim to know “The Truth”, but I know that believing lies is not helpful, no matter how comforting they might be.

Note that when I say “evidence,” I mean facts that can be corroborated and verified independently; claiming the Bible to be the word of God because it says so in the Bible is circular reasoning and, as such, completely unconvincing.

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
I though most women gave that up long ago and just started being mostly hoes.[/quote]

Evolution in the works.

Ok I’ll give one small example of why I dont think that its cool to MAKE women wear that stuff (I gotta eat and get back to work). Lets say my 10 yr old daughter wants to be a swimmer and compete in the olympics or college. How the hell is she gonna be able to compete while wearing a burka? Just another reason why I can’t be a Muslim.

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rugbyhit wrote:
And give me a break…if you what to look to Hollywood, print-ad in magazines and a boys college dorm rooms for your sense of reality of how women are viewed, that could be a conclusion you could reach. But women in western society enjoy a great amount of liberal social equality. Not perfect, but, as I originally stated, better than the Islamic culture.

In that same vein where do you get your information about Islamic culture? Documentaries, news, or first hand from actual Muslim women and men? I dare say it is probably all based on what you’ve been told to believe by western culture.

What difference does it make where I get my information? How come nobody sticks to the point.

Tell me…prove me wrong?please. Where is the provocative proof that the Islamic religion/culture is such a nurturer of womens rights.

[/quote]
In order for me to prove a generalization wrong all I need to find is one instance where the chosen definition fails but in order for you to prove that the generalization is valid you must prove that it is always valid.

Where you get your information is always important. How do we know you weren’t raised by some hill-billy, fundy Christians that pumped you full of anti-Islamic propaganda? Any person that claims to have any amount of rationality cannot call an entire class of religion defunct. It would be like assuming all Christians accept Baptist principles.

[quote]pookie wrote:
btm62 wrote:
From whence do your delusions come then Pookie?

I draw my own conclusions from the evidence available to me.

I also recognize that I might change my mind if presented with more convincing evidence. Something which dogma is quite unwilling and generally unable to do.

So if I have delusions, it is because the evidence from which I’m reaching my conclusions is faulty and/or incomplete. I don’t claim to know “The Truth”, but I know that believing lies is not helpful, no matter how comforting they might be.

Note that when I say “evidence,” I mean facts that can be corroborated and verified independently; claiming the Bible to be the word of God because it says so in the Bible is circular reasoning and, as such, completely unconvincing.
[/quote]

Where did I mention anything about the Bible? But feel free to rant on.

I will presume to give you a clue in your search for truth. When you find it, you won’t need to change your mind. You won’t need to verify it with facts. You will just know it to be the Truth. Personal experience is not dependent on other people’s “evidence”, and it certainly doesn’t make it any more or less true than yours. So to attack someone else’s truth as lies, when honestly Pookie, and you admitted this before, when you don’t know the truth yourself is a bit premature and presumptous.

And no, I don’t know it myself either. I believe I know OF it. Conforming my life to it, as for everyone else, is most challenging and failure is constant.

If the material is such that it prevents the leg hair from poking through, I am cool with it. Now if they’d only shave the mustaches too…

[quote]jawara wrote:
Lets say my 10 yr old daughter wants to be a swimmer and compete in the olympics or college. How the hell is she gonna be able to compete while wearing a burka? Just another reason why I can’t be a Muslim.[/quote]

Ok. So what you really mean is you can’t be one of those Muslims that would force their 10 years old daughter to wear the kind of suit you linked to. It’s like me saying I can’t be a Christian because Christianity advocates violence which I’m opposed to. It’s very easy to find fanatic Christians;

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren’t punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That’s war. And this is war.” – Ann Coulter

As far as the rest of the world, Ann is merely saying what Bush is acting upon.

Does that give me the right to generalize and say that all Christians adhere to that? Obviously not.

There will always be people who do bad things in the name of their religion or of any other conviction. I hope there will always be people who find the courage and energy to do serious research and not rely on whatever some hatemongering group tries to feed them.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
I will presume to give you a clue in your search for truth. When you find it, you won’t need to change your mind. You won’t need to verify it with facts. You will just know it to be the Truth.[/quote]

That type of thinking is incorrect. What if “The Truth” you just know to be The Truth, is not actually The Truth?

I ask that because no matter which religion you follow, billions of people think you’re wrong and are completely convinced (ie, they know) that their version is correct.

You’ve already dismissed any possibility of correcting your views and will live the rest of your life in error. No skin off my nose, but problems arise when large groups of people equipped with “The Truth” try and force it on the rest of us who find your Truth simply absurd.

“The Truth,” whatever it may be, should not crumble under scrutiny. It should not contradict other things you know to be true; it should be open to question and test.

Personal experience is just personal experience. Given the ease with which people can be conned or even delude themselves, personal experience is of the utmost untrustability when it comes to evidence and informing a decision.

Simply because I don’t know the “ultimate truth” doesn’t mean I can’t tell when someone else is trying to pass off a turd as a diamond.

I’m able to evaluate what’s presented to me as “truth”. If it doesn’t pass muster, I reject it. Whether that offends you or not is not important. Your “Truth” deserves no special considerations; if it can’t stand on its own, the it isn’t “The Truth” no matter how dogmatically you argue for it.

Still, how do evaluate whether or not it is correct?

That’s because your “truth” is filled with contradictions and nonsense. Your Bible - and let’s not play dumb here, even if you don’t mention it, that’s clearly what you’re defending - is filled with so much absurdities and contradictions that trying to “conform” to it is simply impossible. Eventually people end up choosing the parts they like and living according to those.

The Bible might be a lot of things, but “The Truth?” Not even close.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rugbyhit wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rugbyhit wrote:
And give me a break…if you what to look to Hollywood, print-ad in magazines and a boys college dorm rooms for your sense of reality of how women are viewed, that could be a conclusion you could reach. But women in western society enjoy a great amount of liberal social equality. Not perfect, but, as I originally stated, better than the Islamic culture.

In that same vein where do you get your information about Islamic culture? Documentaries, news, or first hand from actual Muslim women and men? I dare say it is probably all based on what you’ve been told to believe by western culture.

What difference does it make where I get my information? How come nobody sticks to the point.

Tell me…prove me wrong?please. Where is the provocative proof that the Islamic religion/culture is such a nurturer of womens rights.

In order for me to prove a generalization wrong all I need to find is one instance where the chosen definition fails but in order for you to prove that the generalization is valid you must prove that it is always valid.

Oh please?we are not in logic and looking for a pattern of reasoning…so can the mumbo jumbo. I’m talking about wanting proof, showing the cultural acceptance of women and their associated human rights as being generally accepted in the Islamic world as they are in western society.

Like voting rights, the ascension of women in politics, the arts, and business. Where are the Gloria Steinems, Oprahs, Georgia O’Keeffes and Victoria Woodhulls of the Islamic world?
Answer?there never will be as long as Islamic culture adheres to the teachings of the Muslim religion

Where you get your information is always important. How do we know you weren’t raised by some hill-billy, fundy Christians that pumped you full of anti-Islamic propaganda? Any person that claims to have any amount of rationality cannot call an entire class of religion defunct. It would be like assuming all Christians accept Baptist principles.[/quote]

I’ll tone down my accusations. I’m not one to paint with a broad brush. Not all Muslims…and I know several…treat women with the same second class citizen mindset. And it still does not matter where someone gets their information from or how they formulate their world view. Some things are inherently incorrect?.other things a bit more complex. There are few absolutes.

[quote]pookie wrote:
“The Truth,” whatever it may be, should not crumble under scrutiny. It should not contradict other things you know to be true; it should be open to question and test.[/quote]

I second that statement and wish more people would take it as “Truth”. Wait, no, err…

All kidding aside, you have a most excellent point. It’s a pity not so many people do not follow it. It’s probably because it’s easier to go thru life without having to go ask existentialist questions. Also, continuous vigilance and questioning is very taxing on the intellect. Most people don’t have the resources to go thru that and swallow whatever others have pre-chewed for them (Rabbis, Priests. Mullahs, parents, mentors…).

[quote]pookie wrote:
btm62 wrote:
I will presume to give you a clue in your search for truth. When you find it, you won’t need to change your mind. You won’t need to verify it with facts. You will just know it to be the Truth.

That type of thinking is incorrect.

Funny I was thinking the same thing about your thinking. Thanks for making that blanket statement.
Setting the parameters of the conversation to fit your argument seems so scientific of you.

What if “The Truth” you just know to be The Truth, is not actually The Truth?

Never said I knew it. I said “I think I know OF it.”

I ask that because no matter which religion you follow, billions of people think you’re wrong and are completely convinced (ie, they know) that their version is correct.

I agree with this 100%

You’ve already dismissed any possibility of correcting your views and will live the rest of your life in error. No skin off my nose, but problems arise when large groups of people equipped with “The Truth” try and force it on the rest of us who find your Truth simply absurd.

Why do you think my views need correcting. I have the same opinion about yours. I’m not forcing anything on anyone. I’m merely discussing. It’s the same. When you bring up religion its a discussion, when a Christian brings it up all of the sudden they are “forcing” their views on you. Such victims you all are!

“The Truth,” whatever it may be, should not crumble under scrutiny. It should not contradict other things you know to be true; it should be open to question and test.

The truth I think if know of has not yet crumbled under any scrutiny. What other things is it contradicting? How can you even think about making this statement when you don’t even know what my truth is.

Personal experience is not dependent on other people’s “evidence”, and it certainly doesn’t make it any more or less true than yours.

Personal experience is just personal experience. Given the ease with which people can be conned or even delude themselves, personal experience is of the utmost untrustability when it comes to evidence and informing a decision.

This statement is both true and false in my opinion. I believe my observation still holds true. I didn’t say it was the ONLY evidence.

So to attack someone else’s truth as lies, when honestly Pookie, and you admitted this before, when you don’t know the truth yourself is a bit premature and presumptous.

Simply because I don’t know the “ultimate truth” doesn’t mean I can’t tell when someone else is trying to pass off a turd as a diamond.

Based on what? Personal experience? I’m sorry if you are omnipotent and I’m stepping on toes here.

I’m able to evaluate what’s presented to me as “truth”. If it doesn’t pass muster, I reject it. Whether that offends you or not is not important. Your “Truth” deserves no special considerations; if it can’t stand on its own, the it isn’t “The Truth” no matter how dogmatically you argue for it.

And your right each and every time. Bravo dude! Seriously I hear what you’re saying but I would submit that personal experience comes in to play and does in fact prejudice you. Unless your Mr. Data. I’m not offended at all. Just discussing. Maybe, just maybe the truth is something you can’t put into a box, maybe it’s something you cannot even attain. Something that cannot be neatly defined into boolean logic. Maybe its different for everyone. (Within the boundaries of whatever truth is.)

And no, I don’t know it myself either. I believe I know OF it.

Still, how do evaluate whether or not it is correct?

Probably exactly like you. Through careful thought and based on personal experience.

Conforming my life to it, as for everyone else, is most challenging and failure is constant.

That’s because your “truth” is filled with contradictions and nonsense. Your Bible - and let’s not play dumb here, even if you don’t mention it, that’s clearly what you’re defending - is filled with so much absurdities and contradictions that trying to “conform” to it is simply impossible. Eventually people end up choosing the parts they like and living according to those.

I would submit that before you go bashing the Bible you should probably look around. No absurdities and contradictions going on there huh? I agree with what your are saying, it doesn’t mean some of the rest of us have given up trying however. I think we can take the Bible out of the equation and still have the exact same discussion.

The Bible might be a lot of things, but “The Truth?” Not even close.

Your concepts and notions might be a lot of things, but “The Truth?” Not even close. See how easy that is.
Does my saying it make it true. Not so much huh?
[/quote]

Personally I find it offensive and repressive that western women are forced to cover their boobs. There’s nothing inherent about this. In many traditional equatorial societies the standard for proper clothing never included this imposition until the opressive Christian and Muslim missionaries came and forced these poor women to cover what nature gave them.

Even now in our supposedly liberated West women are both shamed and proscribed by the law from showing a simple part of their body that was not considered “dirty” from time immemorable before the advent of more recent superstition. We should liberate our women and teach them that they shouldn’t be ashamed of their bodies, especially their nips.

We should change the laws not only to legalize this basic human right, but prohibit others from trying to force their nipple-covering ways on others. This is about basic human rights folks.

[quote]etaco wrote:
Personally I find it offensive and repressive that western women are forced to cover their boobs. There’s nothing inherent about this. In many traditional equatorial societies the standard for proper clothing never included this imposition until the opressive Christian and Muslim missionaries came and forced these poor women to cover what nature gave them.

Even now in our supposedly liberated West women are both shamed and proscribed by the law from showing a simple part of their body that was not considered “dirty” from time immemorable before the advent of more recent superstition. We should liberate our women and teach them that they shouldn’t be ashamed of their bodies, especially their nips.

We should change the laws not only to legalize this basic human right, but prohibit others from trying to force their nipple-covering ways on others. This is about basic human rights folks.[/quote]

Damn straight. While we’re at it… let’s liberate us men too. I’d like to walk down the street with no pants on.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Funny I was thinking the same thing about your thinking. Thanks for making that blanket statement.[/quote]

My thinking is open to change. Is yours?

I read and learn constantly and often adjust or revise previous positions because I have a better understanding on some situation. Do you?

You can thrown around false accusations all you want, it won’t make them true, anymore than claiming the Bible is true makes it so.

Where am I setting the parameters of the conversation? I’m simply pointing out to you that your “knowledge” of truth leaves no room for doubt or error. You know it to be True. Why you seem to require validation of it on an internet forum is an interesting question, though.

The question remains: How can you objectively know that the Truth you know of, is the Truth?

Yet you fail to realize the implications of that fact. Why is your “known” Truth any truer than any other religion’s “known” Truth?

They can’t all be right, since most diverge a lot on many important points.

Because they’re not supported by any evidence. In fact, shouldn’t the question be: Why do you think, other than true personal experience, that your views are correct?

No one else can have your personal experience; how can you convince others if you have no other evidence? How can you even convince yourself to the point of “knowing.” Not “I believe” or “I think,” but “I know.”

Fine. Tell me why I’m wrong. Show me evidence I’ve missed or how I’ve misinterpreted it. I’m quite open to discussion and I have no personal stake in keeping the ideas I think to be true.

I don’t mean here. But will you deny that there are many Christian groups lobbying to get school prayer reinstated; to get “under god” back in the pledge; to get abortion banned; to have Creation thought alongside evolution, etc?

That is what I call “forcing your views” on others. It’s not about internet forums; let’s not be purposely dense here.

Well, I’m going from what I remember from previous exchanges. But you’re right. Why don’t we make sure we’re on the same page here.

Let me know if any of the following statements misrepresent your position:

A) You believe the Bible is the Word of God.

B) The Bible is inerrant and does not contradict itself.

C) The Bible has not loss meaning across translation.

D) The King James Bible is the only authoritative version.

E) To get into Heaven, you must accept Jesus as your personal savior.

F) People who reject Jesus won’t be saved and will burn eternally in Hell.

If I’m way off track, please explain your “Truth” as best as possible.

Odd that you’d cite it first, then. For any numbers of false concepts, such as astrology, homeopathy, palm reading, reading tea leaves, etc. You can find thousands, if not millions of people who will claim to have had personal experiences that convinced them of the truth of those ideas.

Test them scientifically, and they all fail.

No, based on lack of evidence. Show me something that corroborates your Truth, other than articles of faith or religious writings. Show me something that can’t be explained as simply being the work of men.

Well yes, personal experience comes into play, but mostly in the form that I expect other mentally fit human beings to dislike pretty much the same things I do (ie, pain, cruelty, meanness, intolerance, etc.) and like/love similar things (ie, beauty, respect, family, friends, etc).

Where personal experience does not inform decisions is when a random occurrence that happens to me contradicts “reality” as I’ve come to expect it. If I hear voices, I think “hallucination,” not “God speaks to me.”

I disagree. Some things about the human experience should be universal. We don’t like pain. Ergo, we should strive to not inflict any unnecessary pain on others.

It also seems obvious to me that everyone, as a person or an individual, should be considered “equal” to others. Women should not be considered second-class citizen or objects, no matter how many Holy Books claim that to be their proper place. It is simply wrong.

Slavery can be dismissed as “evil” (or as being a cause of unnecessary pain) simply by realizing that the enslaved is just as human as you, and would probably prefer freedom to servitude. Again, no matter how much any Holy Book might claim the opposite, it is easy to see that “Truth” cannot tolerate slavery or discrimination as being right.

Again, where the E word? Where’s the evidence? There’s a reason science excludes anecdotal evidence; it proves nothing; teaches nothing.

But since I’m criticizing religion in general and the Bible in particular (although the Koran sucks just as much) it won’t make for a very interesting discussion if we’re simply searching for truth in the same way.

Does the Bible have any weight in your quest for “The Truth?”

But I don’t claim to have the truth. I’m interested in finding it, but I can live with a lot of “we don’t know” and “maybe”, etc.

If I’m shown to believe two contradictory things, I conclude that I’ve probably not given enough thought to one of the issues and will try to reconcile them. If you point out contradictions in the Bible, believers bend over backwards in display of exegesis acrobatics to show how there is, after all, no contradiction.

In other words, if I’m shown that my views conflict with reality, I’ll change my views. When a believer is shown that his views contradict reality, he rejects reality and keeps on believing whatever it was he believed.

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:

Damn straight. While we’re at it… let’s liberate us men too. I’d like to walk down the street with no pants on.[/quote]

Then I’d have to deal with jealous insecure guys trying to pick fights to make themselves feel better. I think there may be more historic/pre-historic support ofr the commonality of the loin cloth or…

But nudity works for me. When it’s warm.

[quote]etaco wrote:
I think there may be more historic/pre-historic support ofr the commonality of the loin cloth or…
[/quote]

or…gasp…foreskin!

Well I’m a little behind on this thread that I started and I really don’t time to read all the posts. But I will say this Islam is way more oppressive to women than Christianity. AND thats the DAMN truth!!!

[quote]jawara wrote:
Well I’m a little behind on this thread that I started and I really don’t time to read all the posts. But I will say this Islam is way more oppressive to women than Christianity. AND thats the DAMN truth!!![/quote]

Umm… please read the Gospel according to Timothy.

Woah boy! ?Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.?

Cor and Numbers are equally as bad.

In fact, the bible is equally as horrible to women as the koran. Ergo, Christianity is as oppressive to women as Islam.

There are more Islamists who oppress women than Christians, but that does not make one religion more oppresive than the other.

[quote]etaco wrote:
Personally I find it offensive and repressive that western women are forced to cover their boobs. There’s nothing inherent about this. In many traditional equatorial societies the standard for proper clothing never included this imposition until the opressive Christian and Muslim missionaries came and forced these poor women to cover what nature gave them.

Even now in our supposedly liberated West women are both shamed and proscribed by the law from showing a simple part of their body that was not considered “dirty” from time immemorable before the advent of more recent superstition. We should liberate our women and teach them that they shouldn’t be ashamed of their bodies, especially their nips.

We should change the laws not only to legalize this basic human right, but prohibit others from trying to force their nipple-covering ways on others. This is about basic human rights folks.[/quote]

Women can go topless in NY.