[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Spry wrote:
Now, communism is very bad. Governing by force won’t work.
But Socialism? Providing for everyone’s needs?
You have failed to convince me that Socialism isn’t “governing by force”.
Please give us your definitions of Communism and Socialism and how they are different.[/quote]
Socialism is the PC term for communism, or now it is “trickle up economics”
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Without government there would be no Starfleet. And without starfleet there would be no Starfleet uniforms. And those uniforms are soooooo cool.[/quote]
I sincerely doubt that the “Starfleet” would ever be possible. Traveling faster than the speed of light isn’t even theoretically possible. Without the ability to fly at “warp speed” there is little economic need or desire to go into space because everything is just so damn far away.
I have always though NASA was a big waste of time and money even though I really think what they do is cool on a technological level. Still waiting for their innovations to trickle down to the public.
Thank God for Tang!
We would have to give up currency all together if we were to do it the Star Trek way. The whole picture from the movies is a great idea, but it is what it is, fantasy/science fiction. I know we got a lot of our current technology influenced from it, cell phones for sure.
The movies/shows painted a picture that had the entire earth coexisting with one another peacefully, as one human race.This is impossible in the real world, people can’t get along because there are to many divisions we fight over. Leaders will always want to rule their people, regardless of system of government and people as a whole will always want a leader to tell them how/where to shit and pay for it.
Socialism, like all systems and Star Trek, look good on paper but the leaders will always abuse their power and the people will allow the system to be corrupted.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Without government there would be no Starfleet. And without starfleet there would be no Starfleet uniforms. And those uniforms are soooooo cool.
I sincerely doubt that the “Starfleet” would ever be possible. Traveling faster than the speed of light isn’t even theoretically possible. Without the ability to fly at “warp speed” there is little economic need or desire to go into space because everything is just so damn far away.
I have always though NASA was a big waste of time and money even though I really think what they do is cool on a technological level. Still waiting for their innovations to trickle down to the public.
Thank God for Tang![/quote]
Velcro, computers, ball point pens, satellite tv, countless manufacturing and material processes, leaps in aerodynamics, ect. I do hope you’re joking.
[quote]Spry wrote:
No, no, no.
You all did not read my question.
What if a government had the means to provide for the NEEDS of its citizens but allowed complete freedom to pursue your WANTS?
Think about Star Trek for what I mean.
Is Star Trek possible or can someone use logic to show me that such a society would ultimately fail?[/quote]
A society such as you envision is only possible in fantasyland. Altruism is impossible for humans to practice consistently. The moral basis of Socialism is altruism, the doctrine that one is morally compelled to help those less fortunate than oneself. This therefore excludes the accumulation of capital (which is used to feed the poor). No capital, no industrial society, and everyone winds up poor.
We did this already; its called the Dark Ages.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Without government there would be no Starfleet. And without starfleet there would be no Starfleet uniforms. And those uniforms are soooooo cool.
I sincerely doubt that the “Starfleet” would ever be possible. Traveling faster than the speed of light isn’t even theoretically possible. Without the ability to fly at “warp speed” there is little economic need or desire to go into space because everything is just so damn far away.
I have always though NASA was a big waste of time and money even though I really think what they do is cool on a technological level. Still waiting for their innovations to trickle down to the public.
Thank God for Tang!
Velcro, computers, ball point pens, satellite tv, countless manufacturing and material processes, leaps in aerodynamics, ect. I do hope you’re joking.[/quote]
Computers were already in the process of being developed for business purposes. Aerodynamics is not a necessary feature of space travel. Satellite TV? Maybe but all the other stuff is irrelevant.
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html
I absolutely think it?s a case of diminishing returns. But you would be amazed at how many things were developed originally by NASA.
I have a better idea…Show me a place and time where it has ever worked and present an argument for it. Socialism’s bliss has never extended beyond theory…Everywhere it has ever been actually tried has been has ended up being a state of oppression for the masses not to mention a pile of dead bodies of the dissenters.
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.
[quote]pat wrote:
I have a better idea…Show me a place and time where it has ever worked and present an argument for it. Socialism’s bliss has never extended beyond theory…Everywhere it has ever been actually tried has been has ended up being a state of oppression for the masses not to mention a pile of dead bodies of the dissenters.
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.[/quote]
… ever heard of eugenics?
Well if I remember the series correctly they went thru a pretty rocky post apocolyptic period before the guy from “babe” discovered warp drive. Then the Vulcans unvieled themselves to the eartlings and helped everyone.
I think they generated all of their energy needs from crystals too.
So yeah if we go thru a period of world war that dissolves all countries into tribes, some guy discovers how to travel faster then the speed of light using discarded scrap metal for his test ship, the aliens are benevolent when they come and we can get energy from rocks…socialism could work.
I don’t see socialism working any other way unfortunately.
[quote]pat wrote:
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.[/quote]
The slave mentality is already being bred into a large portion of the population. When the new generations are old enough to attend public schools they with be indoctrinated into the slave mentality even further with collectivist ideology. These new slaves will then breed with each other and the cycle will continue with their children.
It is happening and the only way to stop it is to stop the cycle of incorrect ideological thinking.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat wrote:
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.
The slave mentality is already being bred into a large portion of the population. When the new generations are old enough to attend public schools they with be indoctrinated into the slave mentality even further with collectivist ideology. These new slaves will then breed with each other and the cycle will continue with their children.
It is happening and the only way to stop it is to stop the cycle of incorrect ideological thinking.[/quote]
The Jews were slaves for generations to the Egyptians, the blacks were slaves for many generations, none of them ever got used to it. I am not worried about indoctrination, you cannot out program wiring.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
pat wrote:
I have a better idea…Show me a place and time where it has ever worked and present an argument for it. Socialism’s bliss has never extended beyond theory…Everywhere it has ever been actually tried has been has ended up being a state of oppression for the masses not to mention a pile of dead bodies of the dissenters.
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.
… ever heard of eugenics?[/quote]
But in eugenics they are looking to eliminate unfavorable traits.
like letting laziness die off or sterilizing stupid people.
No one would ever go for that.
[quote]hedo wrote:
I don’t see socialism working any other way unfortunately.[/quote]
But it won’t “work” because even with awesome technology it still would lack the feature of a market economy that allows calculation and therefore correction.
Besides, if the technology of star trek actually existed scarcity would become nonexistent and socialism becomes unnecessary in these conditions. Conflict would also become nonexistent between humans.
If the technology existed to travel at warp speeds and to find earth-like planets (or to recreate the conditions necessary for human life) then humans would be free from government and would probably move more toward an anarchistic society. They would essentially not have to rely on government for anything.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
pat wrote:
I have a better idea…Show me a place and time where it has ever worked and present an argument for it. Socialism’s bliss has never extended beyond theory…Everywhere it has ever been actually tried has been has ended up being a state of oppression for the masses not to mention a pile of dead bodies of the dissenters.
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.
… ever heard of eugenics?
But in eugenics they are looking to eliminate unfavorable traits.
like letting laziness die off or sterilizing stupid people.
No one would ever go for that.[/quote]
In some ways abortion can be seen as eugenics for the socially undesirable.
Why weren’t taxes being called “socialism” before now?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
pat wrote:
I have a better idea…Show me a place and time where it has ever worked and present an argument for it. Socialism’s bliss has never extended beyond theory…Everywhere it has ever been actually tried has been has ended up being a state of oppression for the masses not to mention a pile of dead bodies of the dissenters.
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.
… ever heard of eugenics?
But in eugenics they are looking to eliminate unfavorable traits.
like letting laziness die off or sterilizing stupid people.
No one would ever go for that.
In some ways abortion can be seen as eugenics for the socially undesirable.[/quote]
Good point…except the people who are aborting are likely aborting like minded people out of existence…Kind of a poetic justice in the making.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why weren’t taxes being called “socialism” before now?[/quote]
Socialism is a doctrine which attempts to direct market conditions by controlling the use of private property. It has nothing to do with taxes; however, socialism cannot be instituted without taxation. In many respects legalizing of the income tax was the beginning of socialism in the US.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why weren’t taxes being called “socialism” before now?[/quote]
I’ve always thought a progressive tax was.
It all really is like balloon tricks like what car dealers do. If you squeeze the balloon somewhere, it inflates somewhere else. And you always end up paying full price in the end.
[quote]pat wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
pat wrote:
I have a better idea…Show me a place and time where it has ever worked and present an argument for it. Socialism’s bliss has never extended beyond theory…Everywhere it has ever been actually tried has been has ended up being a state of oppression for the masses not to mention a pile of dead bodies of the dissenters.
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wire to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group…This is in our DNA, you would literally have to genetically re-engineer people to get socialism to work.
… ever heard of eugenics?
But in eugenics they are looking to eliminate unfavorable traits.
like letting laziness die off or sterilizing stupid people.
No one would ever go for that.
In some ways abortion can be seen as eugenics for the socially undesirable.
Good point…except the people who are aborting are likely aborting like minded people out of existence…Kind of a poetic justice in the making. [/quote]
I think that?s a horrible outlook. Cutting up an unborn child and sucking it out of a womb is as far from poetic or justice you can get regardless of their burden on society or possible political affiliation.
I wasn?t arguing for abortion at all, just that there is a connection between liberalism, eugenics and abortion.