T Nation

Why Does Anti-Semitism Exist?

I’m really not pleased with having to watch Matisyahu… yeehaw … yoohooo butcher a Police song on Jimmy Kimmel right now. I’m sending out my own SOS. I hope that someone gets my… message on a forum.

[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
I’m really not pleased with having to watch Matisyahu… yeehaw … yoohooo butcher a Police song on Jimmy Kimmel right now. I’m sending out my own SOS. I hope that someone gets my… message on a forum.[/quote]

Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. This is the reason anti-Semitism exists. Because Hasidic Jewish reggae singers feel compelled to do bad Sting imitations on network talk shows. Thanks, Molotov. you solved it for us.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. This is the reason anti-Semitism exists. Because Hasidic Jewish reggae singers feel compelled to do bad Sting imitations on network talk shows. Thanks, Molotov. you solved it for us.[/quote]

There is probably a lawsuit being drawn up in a Belgian court for this heinous act as we speak.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
orion wrote:
Varqanir wrote:

The Jews have learned (although it has taken innumerable pogroms and the Holocaust for the message to sink in), that there is more to be gained by mixing with the Gentiles than by being a haughty, aloof Chosen People in solitude.

Jews lived in ghettos because they were required by law to do so.

Well, yes, and at that time, Germans and Turks were also required to live in ghettos of their own, at least in Venice.

But even after the ghettoes were abolished in the 19th century, Jews still were very insulated from the rest of the population, by their own choice, I would argue.

It is a chicken-and-egg question. Were the Jews hated because they were the outsiders, or were they the outsiders because they were hated. It is a question pertinent to the largest and most contentious Jewish Ghetto in the world today, namely Israel.[/quote]

There is not much chicken-and-egg question. Jews after leaving Israel were outsiders (especially in Europe) due to their religion and closeness of the tribe. Hatred came later. More isolation came later.

OFFTOP: Listen to Matisyahu beatbox. He is great.

Satre wrote a book about this, called Anti-Semite and Jew. Very interesting read, and pretty short.

For reference, I have two Jewish friends, neither one of them all that involved with their religion/ethnicity – just enough to make their parents happy. Their parents aren’t Zionists either – they’re happy to practice their religion and live their lives in the US and don’t consider Israel their native “homeland”.

I don’t think people throwing around the anti-Semitic, Nazi, Jew hater label really understand why the criticism is valid – so let me put it in a format some of the biggest loud mouths are more likely to understand by replacing several key words from recent Jewish news sources.

Division of congressional posts seems to favor French issues
January 10, 2007
WASHINGTON, Jan. 9 (JTA) - The new Congress doesn’t just feature more French in powerful positions than the community has seen in more than a decade - it also features more friendly faces across the board, French leaders say.

“A net positive” is how one pro-France activist described it…

No one denies that the Republican-led U.S. House of Representatives, in power from 1995 until 2006, was overwhelmingly pro-France. But with Democratic wins in both houses, the 110th Congress removes from power several maverick Republicans who wanted the United States to be more critical of France, and boosts to leadership lawmakers who are not just France-friendly but intimately acquainted with the U.S. French community.

That’s partly because some of the top leaders are from the community.

Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif.), the sole Holocaust survivor in Congress and one of France’s staunchest defenders in the House of Representatives, assumes control of the International Relations Committee. His deputy is Rep. Howard Berman (D-Calif.), also French.

Lantos replaces Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Ill.), who was often critical of France’s settlement policy, particular its effects on Palestinian Christians. Hyde was retiring in any case, and moving into the top Republican spot on the committee is Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.), whose pro-France record is unmatched.

Four of the committee’s seven subcommittee chairmen are likely to be French, though the positions will only be formalized by week’s end:…

Perhaps the most prominent pro-France boost is of Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.), who becomes majority leader. Hoyer is on a first-name basis with much of the board of the American France Public Affairs Committee and has been to France multiple times, exhibiting broad knowledge of its political workings…

with the burgeoning deficit and major Iraq war funding battles in the offing, Obey is not likely to have much time to deal with France. He’ll leave that to Rep. Nita Lowey (D-N.Y.), who will chair the Foreign Operations subcommittee. Lowey, who began her political career leading French groups, is quite friendly to France.

Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), the new House speaker, has elevated a number of French members to powerful committees…

There are a record 13 French in the Senate, including 11 who are Democrats or caucus with Democrats - 20 percent of the Democratic presence.

French in chairmanship positions include:

French take root in Capitol Hill
Democrats may have conquered both houses of Congress, and so have French politicians.

French groups are expecting action with Democrats controlling Congress
January 2, 2007
WASHINGTON, Jan. 2 (JTA) - With Democrats in charge of the new U.S. Congress convening this week, it’s a time of well-wishing, wish lists and wishes come true for an array of national French groups.

Freshmen - about 60 of them - and returnees alike found invitations, inquiries and entreaties from French groups upon their arrival in Washington…

A number of national French groups have signed on to a letter supporting the increase. The letter, organized by the French Council for Public Affairs, the umbrella body for French community relations councils, was slated to be sent Wednesday to all Congress members - freshmen and returnees…

The letter, signed by, among others, the American French Committee, the National Council of French Women, the Union for Reform Frenchism and B’nai B’rith International, urges lawmakers not to attach amendments to the bill. That element was promoted strongly by Pelosi, who has made it clear she wants the bill passed unencumbered by the pet ideologies and projects of Congress members…
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=17445&intcategoryid=3

French billionaire Saban biggest donor to US politicians
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3355786,00.html

Lieberman Queries Lamont Over Commitment to France
Senator Joseph I. Lieberman questioned his opponent’s commitment to France at a fund-raiser in Manhattan yesterday, saying he had received important support from several Democrats who have been critical of France…

Pelosi’s support for France is heartfelt, supporters say
With Pelosi as speaker, French activists and officials are confident that the U.S. Congress will remain strongly pro-France.

“I’ve heard her say numerous times that the single greatest achievement of the 20th century” was the founding of the modern state of France, Friedkin wrote…

“As far as the French community is concerned, she feels our issues in her soul,” he said.

To illustrate his point, Lauter told a Pelosi story that has become almost legendary in the French community.

At an AFPAC members luncheon in San Francisco right after the Sept. 11 terror attacks, Pelosi was speaking when an alarm sounded.

“Everybody started getting nervous, scrambling toward the door,” Lauter recalled. One person, though, was reading the words of La Marseillaise, the French national anthem, above the din. It was Pelosi.

“It actually calmed the crowd,” Lauter said. “You could see people actually smiling, saying ‘Wow.’”
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=17262&intcategoryid=3

Allies and espionage
It is rather strange that the US media seems to be ignoring what may well be the most explosive story since the 11 September attacks - the alleged break-up of a major French espionage operation in the USA…

If the reports from Paris are correct, it would be the largest known French espionage operation in the USA, France’s closest ally and one on which it depends for its survival…
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jid/jid020313_1_n.shtml

Pentagon Analyst In French Spy Case Is Called a ‘Patriot’

Top White House posts go to French
After appointing Joshua Bolten to be the White House chief of staff, US President George W. Bush nominated another French staffer, Joel Kaplan, to serve as Bolten’s deputy, putting him in charge of the daily policy planning.

The fact that White House policy is now in the hands of two Frenchman is not seen as significant by activists in the American French community.

“He is simply appointing the best people for the job,” said Nathan Diament, who heads the Washington office of the Orthodox Union. Another French activist added that he “wouldn’t read too much into it…”

Bolten and Kaplan will probably be the most prominent French members of the Bush administration, but not the only ones. Apart from Bolten, there is another French cabinet member, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, and there are other French senior staff members, including Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams and White House staffer Jay Lefkowitz.

In the past year, several French who were holding senior posts in the administration have left, among them deputy secretary of defense Paul Wolfowitz, undersecretary of defense Doug Feith, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff Lewis “Scooter” Libby and political adviser Ken Mehlman, who now heads the Republican National Committee…

Other French activists, both Republican and Democrat, agree that the nomination of Bolten and Kaplan have no affect on policy…
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498911316&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

It’s settled then, all the French activists agree that having all these French in policy making positions has no affect on US foreign policy…

Perhaps an even better analogy would have been Scientologists, since that would also take into account a religious ideology factor also not shared by an overwhelming majority of the people.

There are those who would like to equate anti-Zionism (or simply not being pro-Zionism) with being against Jews in general. This is reprehensible.

However, there are clearly posters on this board who have hatred toward Jews in general, rather than a political difference with Zionism.

Suppose you have no country and have been chased out of those where you have lived. All you have is your tiny little brain to help you survive. It becomes razor sharp, so that you become a doctor or a lawyer, a banker or some other profitable profession (or a teacher if people are more important than money :).

Many of my ancestors are Ashkanazim. They were hated because they were intelligent.

Ashkenazi intelligence
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Ashkenazi intelligence refers to the general intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews, the Jews of Central and Eastern European origin who are the descendants of Jews who settled in the Rhineland beginning about the year 800 CE.

Many studies show that Ashkenazi Jews perform as a group better than other groups on standardized tests of general intelligence. On IQ tests the average score of Ashkenazi Jews is higher than that of any tested ethnic group, being roughly one standard deviation higher than the mean of the general white population.[5] These studies also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical performance; spatial performance is about 90, if whites are taken as the mean. Estimates vary from 107 to 117. [6][7][8][9]

Ashkenazi Jews achieve out of proportion with their numbers in areas that presumably require high intelligence. For example, although Ashkenazi Jews represent only about 0.25 percent of the world population, they make up 28 percent of Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, and Economics, and have accounted for more than half of world chess champions.[10] In the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent less than 2 percent of the population, but have won 40 percent of the Nobel Prizes in science awarded to U.S. citizens, and 25 percent of all Turing Awards. A significant decline in the number of Nobel Prizes awarded to Europeans and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to U.S. citizens occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews drove them from Europe during the 1930s and the Holocaust reduced their number in Europe during the 1940s.[11]

Whether this difference in measured intelligence and achievement is due entirely to a culture of study and vocational training (environment), or partially to a difference in genetic variables, is presently unknown and controversial, and part of the larger academic debate on race and intelligence."

Actually, Headhunter, I think this is as good an example of natural selection as you are going to find. If an animal…or a race of humanity… is actively hunted and attempts made to eradicate it for millennia, then it stands to reason that only the smartest (i.e. the ones who were able to evade extermination) will survive. God’s chosen, or naturally selected, whichever you want to call it.

And yes, it would be natural selection, inasmuch as humanity is an aspect of nature. So, by the way, is genocide: put two competing strains of paramecium into the same petri dish and you’ll see what I mean.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Actually, Headhunter, I think this is as good an example of natural selection as you are going to find. If an animal…or a race of humanity… is actively hunted and attempts made to eradicate it for millennia, then it stands to reason that only the smartest (i.e. the ones who were able to evade extermination) will survive. God’s chosen, or naturally selected, whichever you want to call it.

And yes, it would be natural selection, inasmuch as humanity is an aspect of nature. So, by the way, is genocide: put two competing strains of paramecium into the same petri dish and you’ll see what I mean.[/quote]

Varqanir, a competing and way more likely explanation is that Judaism put incredible emphasis on education as it was important that very young kids knew how to read Torah. Also to do banking, one needs to know at least some math.

I really doubt Antisemitism has anything to do with Jews doing well. There are a lot of oppressed minorities who don’t do very well.

[quote]skor wrote:
OFFTOP: Listen to Matisyahu beatbox. He is great.[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not a big fan of beatbox…I know it takes a certain skill, but its pretty much pointless in my estimation. I’ll be sure to keep your opinion in mind though next time Michael Winslow and I are having a Breakin’ 2 Electric Boogaloo party. Where Matisyahu is concerned, the sound of his voice makes me want to strangle random helpless animals.

[quote]jumper wrote:
Maybe some of you can help me out here. I am interested in this topic, I noticed in my time in the Middle East there was an extreme hatred of the Jewish people. This was also evident in WWII with the Hitler and the Nazi’s. How can people grow up with the extreme hatred of wanting to exterminate someone because of their religon or race? [/quote]

Main Directory:
http://www.heretical.com/

http://www.heretical.com/oliver/js07.html

http://www.heretical.com/sheppard/wjd.html

Better start reading. There is lots of material to cover.

[quote]skor wrote:

Varqanir, a competing and way more likely explanation is that Judaism put incredible emphasis on education as it was important that very young kids knew how to read Torah. Also to do banking, one needs to know at least some math.

I really doubt Antisemitism has anything to do with Jews doing well. There are a lot of oppressed minorities who don’t do very well.[/quote]

Yeah, I’ve heard that theory, but I don’t buy it as a comprehensive explanation. Literacy at an early age does not necessarily correlate to acumen in business or law, nor the general shrewdness and craftiness that is stereotypical (but often true) of Jewish people.

In other words, you can home-school a four-year old to read using Hooked on Phonics, but that doesn’t guarantee he’s going to end up as a senior partner in a legal firm or the writer of cheesy sitcoms.

I will concede the point, however, that years of diligent study of the Torah probably predisposes a Jewish child toward a career in law or medicine, in that the bulk of the book does, after all, pertain to law and hygiene.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
skor wrote:

Varqanir, a competing and way more likely explanation is that Judaism put incredible emphasis on education as it was important that very young kids knew how to read Torah. Also to do banking, one needs to know at least some math.

I really doubt Antisemitism has anything to do with Jews doing well. There are a lot of oppressed minorities who don’t do very well.

Yeah, I’ve heard that theory, but I don’t buy it as a comprehensive explanation. Literacy at an early age does not necessarily correlate to acumen in business or law, nor the general shrewdness and craftiness that is stereotypical (but often true) of Jewish people.

In other words, you can home-school a four-year old to read using Hooked on Phonics, but that doesn’t guarantee he’s going to end up as a senior partner in a legal firm or the writer of cheesy sitcoms.

I will concede the point, however, that years of diligent study of the Torah probably predisposes a Jewish child toward a career in law or medicine, in that the bulk of the book does, after all, pertain to law and hygiene.[/quote]

Surely literacy at an earlier age correlates with brain development and ability to think critically. Literacy is the first step to any “advanced” position and early development.
This was coupled with a culture that valued knowledge. Frankly speaking, I don’t think law, business or medicine require one to be really intelligent. Math and physics - yes, and Jews succeeded there as well.

I don’t think there is a direct connection between Torah containing laws of hygiene and success in medicine.

But since hygiene was brought up, Jews were hated in the times of Black Plague because they had a considerably smaller death rate (since rabbinical laws are very strict about hygiene). I’m sure good hygiene also positively reflects on brain development of children.

[quote]skor wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Actually, Headhunter, I think this is as good an example of natural selection as you are going to find. If an animal…or a race of humanity… is actively hunted and attempts made to eradicate it for millennia, then it stands to reason that only the smartest (i.e. the ones who were able to evade extermination) will survive. God’s chosen, or naturally selected, whichever you want to call it.

And yes, it would be natural selection, inasmuch as humanity is an aspect of nature. So, by the way, is genocide: put two competing strains of paramecium into the same petri dish and you’ll see what I mean.

Varqanir, a competing and way more likely explanation is that Judaism put incredible emphasis on education as it was important that very young kids knew how to read Torah. Also to do banking, one needs to know at least some math.

I really doubt Antisemitism has anything to do with Jews doing well. There are a lot of oppressed minorities who don’t do very well.[/quote]

If you seem to be prosperous while those around you are suffering, then they tend to conclude that somehow you are prospering on their misery. Look at Hitler’s discussion in Mein Kampf, when he comes home on leave: “Every Jew a clerk and every clerk a Jew.”

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
skor wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Actually, Headhunter, I think this is as good an example of natural selection as you are going to find. If an animal…or a race of humanity… is actively hunted and attempts made to eradicate it for millennia, then it stands to reason that only the smartest (i.e. the ones who were able to evade extermination) will survive. God’s chosen, or naturally selected, whichever you want to call it.

And yes, it would be natural selection, inasmuch as humanity is an aspect of nature. So, by the way, is genocide: put two competing strains of paramecium into the same petri dish and you’ll see what I mean.

Varqanir, a competing and way more likely explanation is that Judaism put incredible emphasis on education as it was important that very young kids knew how to read Torah. Also to do banking, one needs to know at least some math.

I really doubt Antisemitism has anything to do with Jews doing well. There are a lot of oppressed minorities who don’t do very well.

If you seem to be prosperous while those around you are suffering, then they tend to conclude that somehow you are prospering on their misery. Look at Hitler’s discussion in Mein Kampf, when he comes home on leave: “Every Jew a clerk and every clerk a Jew.”
[/quote]

Varqanir was implying that Antisemitism led to selection pressure and hence to prosperity. You, on the other hand, suggest that causation is in the opposite direction. I much more agree with you than with Varqanir.

[quote]skor wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
skor wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Actually, Headhunter, I think this is as good an example of natural selection as you are going to find. If an animal…or a race of humanity… is actively hunted and attempts made to eradicate it for millennia, then it stands to reason that only the smartest (i.e. the ones who were able to evade extermination) will survive. God’s chosen, or naturally selected, whichever you want to call it.

And yes, it would be natural selection, inasmuch as humanity is an aspect of nature. So, by the way, is genocide: put two competing strains of paramecium into the same petri dish and you’ll see what I mean.

Varqanir, a competing and way more likely explanation is that Judaism put incredible emphasis on education as it was important that very young kids knew how to read Torah. Also to do banking, one needs to know at least some math.

I really doubt Antisemitism has anything to do with Jews doing well. There are a lot of oppressed minorities who don’t do very well.

If you seem to be prosperous while those around you are suffering, then they tend to conclude that somehow you are prospering on their misery. Look at Hitler’s discussion in Mein Kampf, when he comes home on leave: “Every Jew a clerk and every clerk a Jew.”

Varqanir was implying that Antisemitism led to selection pressure and hence to prosperity. You, on the other hand, suggest that causation is in the opposite direction. I much more agree with you than with Varqanir.[/quote]

It’s both.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
It’s both.[/quote]

Thank you, js.

Indeed: perhaps the fox is hunted for being sly, but certainly he is sly from being often hunted.

“It is fortunate for the Jews generally that the Jewish Press does not Circulate very widely among Gentiles, for it is probably the one established agency in the United States which, without altering its program in the least, could stir up anti-Jewish sentiment by the very simple expedient of a general reading among non-Jews. Jewish writers writing for Jewish-readers present unusual material for the study of race consciousness and its accompaniment of contempt for other races…”
–Henry Ford, 1921


Excerpt from:
“Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years” - 1994
by Professor Israel Shahak

CHAPTER 5 - The Laws Against Non-Jews

ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH religion, the murder of a Jew is a capital offense and one of the three most heinous sins (the other two being idolatry and adultery). Jewish religious courts and secular authorities are commanded to punish, even beyond the limits of the ordinary administration of justice, anyone guilty of murdering a Jew. A Jew who indirectly causes the death of another Jew is, however, only guilty of what talmudic law calls a sin against the ‘laws of Heaven’, to be punished by God rather than by man.

When the victim is a Gentile, the position is quite different. A Jew who murders a Gentile is guilty only of a sin against the laws of Heaven, not punishable by a court. To cause indirectly the death of a Gentile is no sin at all.

Thus, one of the two most important commentators on the Shulhan Arukh explains that when it comes to a Gentile, 'one must not lift one’s hand to harm him, but one may harm him indirectly, for instance by removing a ladder after he had fallen into a crevice…, there is no prohibition here, because it was not done directly: He points out, however, that an act leading indirectly to a Gentile’s death is forbidden if it may cause the spread of hostility towards Jews…

Since even the minimal interdiction against murdering a Gentile outright applies only to ‘Gentiles with whom we [the Jews] are not at war’, various rabbinical commentators in the past drew the logical conclusion that in wartime all Gentiles belonging to a hostile population may, or even should be killed. Since 1973 this doctrine is being publicly propagated for the guidance of religious Israeli soldiers. The first such official exhortation was included in a booklet published by the Central Region Command of the Israeli Army, whose area includes the West Bank. In this booklet the Command’s Chief Chaplain writes:

When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed… Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized… In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good

…We have mentioned in Chapter 2 the rule according to which a pious Jew must utter a curse when passing near a Gentile cemetery, whereas he must bless God when passing near a Jewish cemetery. A similar rule applies to the living; thus, when seeing a large Jewish population a devout Jew must praise God, while upon seeing a large Gentile population he must utter a curse. Nor are buildings exempt: the Talmud lays down that a Jew who passes near an inhabited non-Jewish dwelling must ask God to destroy it, whereas if the building is in ruins he must thank the Lord of Vengeance…
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis5.htm#The%20Laws%20Against%20Non-Jews


"If the Christian population bothered one-hundredth-thousandth part as much about Jewish religion as the Jews bother about Christian observances, the whole fabric of Talmudic teaching would be consumed in the bright light to which general attention would bring it, the bright light from which it has always been concealed. Sheer analysis in the interest of mental health would compel the Jewish people to abandon the darkness which holds them now. Jewish Talmudism owes its existence today to the indifference with which it is regarded. This is the far opposite extreme of “religious persecution…”
–Henry Ford

[quote]nephorm wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:

There are those who would like to equate anti-Zionism (or simply not being pro-Zionism) with being against Jews in general. This is reprehensible.

However, there are clearly posters on this board who have hatred toward Jews in general, rather than a political difference with Zionism.[/quote]

Both great points. The only problem is that occasionally the anti-Semites (I think we all know who I’m referring to) raise a valid point or two.