Why Do People Care?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
I say believe whatever you want, but keep it personal.[/quote]

Thanks JFK, but no thanks. I’m not going to allow someone to persecute me into keeping my beliefs personal. That’s like me telling you, it’s okay if you believe whatever, but as soon as you make it publicized I’m going to yell for the police, &c. [/quote]
Thanks for misconstruing the point entirely, that was really helpful to everyone here. Did I say you should be fucking jailed for bringing your beliefs out into public? No? Then stop twisting my fucking words.

Your beliefs should not dictate how I live my life. Your beliefs are not better than mine. Your beliefs have no place dictating public policy.

Religion is specific to the individual. Do not hold me to your beliefs. Is that a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp? It shouldn’t be.

Nobody wants to fucking persecute you. Nobody wants you preaching down their throats either. It’s one thing to discuss your religion to someone who’s interested. It is another thing entirely to force it on other people. I think a person’s sex life is personal too, are you worried I’m going to call the fucking cops on you the second you start talking about too?

22

I didn’t miscontrue the point. The idea or term of keeping religion “personal” comes from JFK’s run for President when he told the Southern Protestant Ministers that he would keep his Catholic faith personal and he wouldn’t retain his subordination to the Pope while he was in office as President. Basically he wouldn’t attempt to put the United States under the power of the Pope and would keep it a democracy of the People, and not a Kingdom of the Pope.

People miscontrued that to mean that we if we see something immoral happening we can’t bring justice. That what’s right for me isn’t necessarily right for you and I shouldn’t impose that on you. Which is bullshit, if something is wrong it is wrong no matter who it is.

I have no clue what your beliefs are, but the Catholic faith (and I would say partially that which was held by most Americas before the 60’s as well) are definitely superior to others. You may have some good beliefs. But, I’m sorry my beliefs are better than what has happened to America in the past half century. No-fault divorce, abortion, drug abuse, legalized prostitution, unjust wars, wars on it’s own people, ignoring the poor, inabling the poor, bailing out corrupt businesses, single parent families, murder, robbery, gangs, dangerous borders, legalizing AC, affirmative action, Patriot Act, Iraq, Afghanistan, Afghanistan again, New Orleans, &c.

I’m not saying that all the laws were just half century ago, blue laws, discrimination against those based on the color of their skin, &c.

I’ve gotten in trouble in school (suspended) and in public (arrested) for voicing my beliefs. So, don’t give me that shit about that is not what you mean, because that is what it has come down to and in the name of “keeping it personal.” If you have a problem with me not keeping my beliefs personal, then don’t listen. I have free speech. And, I have the right to vote. So, please spare me the flattery and just admit that you don’t want to give me the right of a citizen to vote or in the case of holding public office to use my reasonings to make legislation. You don’t want to give me that right. Don’t be ambiguous.

23

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Yeah, I cant see how Christian beliefs affect others, especially me.

Except that I’m considered rude if I dont say “God bless you” when someone sneezes.

Except that “In God we trust” is printed on the money I use.

Except that my gay friends are discriminated against, as per biblical teaching.

Except that I had to say “One nation, under God” every time I recited the pledge of allegiance growing up

Except that many businesses are not open or close early on sunday - thanks to religious tradition.

Except that progress in fields such as medicine are still being slowed by the religious right.

…yup. Can’t imagine why I’d care.[/quote]

Man…thats tough. Glad you have not killed yourself or something.

26

[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:

I mean, I can see where a Christian is coming from, for instance, if you tell him he’s a dumbass for believing in a sky wizard. Conversely, I can see how an atheist might be put off by being reprimanded and told he’s going to hell.[/quote]

This is the crux of it. Some religious people assert that their particular religion is better, truer, the only one. And people who believe differently are either going to hell and/or are just shit-outta-luck as far as enlightenment is concerned. (Or “Saved”, to use a christian vernacular) What if everyone is SUPPOSED to be guided by their own heart and mind, and leave everyone else out of it?

27

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:

I mean, I can see where a Christian is coming from, for instance, if you tell him he’s a dumbass for believing in a sky wizard. Conversely, I can see how an atheist might be put off by being reprimanded and told he’s going to hell.[/quote]

This is the crux of it. Some religious people assert that their particular religion is better, truer, the only one. And people who believe differently are either going to hell and/or are just shit-outta-luck as far as enlightenment is concerned. (Or “Saved”, to use a christian vernacular) What if everyone is SUPPOSED to be guided by their own heart and mind, and leave everyone else out of it?[/quote]

Islam is a complete and total force for destruction and hate. It cannot be denied.

28

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
I say believe whatever you want, but keep it personal.[/quote]

Thanks JFK, but no thanks. I’m not going to allow someone to persecute me into keeping my beliefs personal. That’s like me telling you, it’s okay if you believe whatever, but as soon as you make it publicized I’m going to yell for the police, &c. [/quote]

I think publicizing it is absolutely fine. I tell people that I am an agnostic leaning towards belief in some sort of extra-physical creator. They tell me they are Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Jewish, whatever…and that is perfectly fine. I can discuss it for hours with people. We can all talk about who we are and what we believe.

The issue is with personal faith and its bearing on public policy. As soon as someone tries to introduce legislation grounded in religious morality, I have a huge problem. We live in a world in which faith is anything but universal–people believe all sorts of things and each one of them invariably claims to be perfectly and wholly correct. The truth is that empirical scientific evidence has made literal interpretations of each of the great world religions impossible to support. Since no religion can be proved to be the “right one” on the basis of evidence, none should have any bearing on law or public policy.

You showed an understanding of this yourself in the thread about gay marriage. You told me that you think homosexuality immoral for religious reasons, but that it wouldn’t make sense to present them to me since I am not a Catholic. That, in my opinion, is exactly how religion should be treated in public discourse.[/quote]

I bet there are a lot of thing that you believe to be right or wrong that are not based in science that you think should be public policy.[/quote]

The mechanism with which I judge right and wrong has not been disproven by science. We can talk about the morality of an issue without appealing to controversial literature of the ancient world. To use the Bible is to use a document that has been unequivocally proven to be full of error.

As a side not, I am not trying to demean the allegorical worth of Biblical or any other religious stories. The New Testament in particular is full of the right kind ideas in my opinion. I see no problem with absorbing Jesus’ teachings about love and then trying to bring an understanding of compassion to public discourse.

To choose a specific passage and to say “we have to do X because Y is written in this book” is absolutely unacceptable. Just because something has been written down doesn’t mean it has any worth–until it becomes clear that it is unequivocally correct. Until then it is just a collection of words on a page.[/quote]

Morality isn’t something that can be proven or disproven. It’s a matter of oughts and ought nots.

29

[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Yeah, I cant see how Christian beliefs affect others, especially me.

Except that I’m considered rude if I dont say “God bless you” when someone sneezes.

Except that “In God we trust” is printed on the money I use.
[/quote]

Those are all examples of shit that doesn’t matter.

[quote]

Yes, it matters if people are considered rude for not saying something that assumes the correctness or truthfulness of a particular religion.

It matters VERY MUCH that legal tender is used to promote one specific religion in a secular country. How the fuck can that not matter? If Obama decides all money will say “Praise be to Allah”, you think there wouldnt be massive uproar?

I think I’m done with you. You ask why it matters, I give you examples of both private, individual reasons and public systemic reasons and your response is “Well, those things dont matter.”

30

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Yeah, I cant see how Christian beliefs affect others, especially me.

Except that I’m considered rude if I dont say “God bless you” when someone sneezes.

Except that “In God we trust” is printed on the money I use.

Except that my gay friends are discriminated against, as per biblical teaching.

Except that I had to say “One nation, under God” every time I recited the pledge of allegiance growing up

Except that many businesses are not open or close early on sunday - thanks to religious tradition.

Except that progress in fields such as medicine are still being slowed by the religious right.

…yup. Can’t imagine why I’d care.[/quote]

Maybe you need to worry more about your self, than minutia. The majority of American’s are Christian.
I will accept a strait democratic vote on those things you take exception to. If people vote to take ‘God’ out of the pledge or the money or what ever, I will accept that, if they want to keep it would you agree to that? I think that’s fair.
How often to you recite the pledge or read anything other than the numbers on money anyway?
If I sneeze and you don’t say shit, I don’t care.
I would be amused though if you said ‘nothing bless you’.[/quote]

Nope, its not fair. Also, the only reason (let me preface this by saying you should stop for a second and consider the possibility instead of just getting defensive) you think this way is because the majority believes as you do, or in a way close enough to what you do for you to feel comfortable.

Even if the majority wants “God” printed on money, it’s still using a necessary government thing (I’m sure theres a better word for thing, but I just had a good workout and I’m tired) to advocate a particular religion. You’re ok with it because you believe in god. However, if the majority of Americans were atheists, and everyone voted to have “There is no God” printed on our money - you wouldn’t be ok with that, even though it would still fit in with your “let the majority rule, that’s fair right?” mentality.

As a note, money shouldnt mention the existence or nonexistence of god - I personally would not support a decidedly atheist saying on money.

31

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
Religion is specific to the individual. Do not hold me to your beliefs. Is that a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp? It shouldn’t be.

[/quote]

That’s not what religion is, though. When enough people believe the same thing, it will always happen that they will support laws that try to make others behave in the way they believe they should. In any population where there is a dominant religion, the culture is dominated by that religion, and to a greater or lesser extent, the laws as well.

Thats why it matters what other people believe.

32

More than anything, it’s the issue of idoctrinating young children that gets me (especially, the intellectual shielding) + the judgemental attitude that can sometimes come hand in hand with SOME theists.

I’m just glad I live in a mostly non-religous country. If I’d brought up in Bible belt in America my views may well be much, much different.

33

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
I say believe whatever you want, but keep it personal.[/quote]

Thanks JFK, but no thanks. I’m not going to allow someone to persecute me into keeping my beliefs personal. That’s like me telling you, it’s okay if you believe whatever, but as soon as you make it publicized I’m going to yell for the police, &c. [/quote]

I think publicizing it is absolutely fine. I tell people that I am an agnostic leaning towards belief in some sort of extra-physical creator. They tell me they are Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Jewish, whatever…and that is perfectly fine. I can discuss it for hours with people. We can all talk about who we are and what we believe.

The issue is with personal faith and its bearing on public policy. As soon as someone tries to introduce legislation grounded in religious morality, I have a huge problem. We live in a world in which faith is anything but universal–people believe all sorts of things and each one of them invariably claims to be perfectly and wholly correct. The truth is that empirical scientific evidence has made literal interpretations of each of the great world religions impossible to support. Since no religion can be proved to be the “right one” on the basis of evidence, none should have any bearing on law or public policy.

You showed an understanding of this yourself in the thread about gay marriage. You told me that you think homosexuality immoral for religious reasons, but that it wouldn’t make sense to present them to me since I am not a Catholic. That, in my opinion, is exactly how religion should be treated in public discourse.[/quote]

I bet there are a lot of thing that you believe to be right or wrong that are not based in science that you think should be public policy.[/quote]

The mechanism with which I judge right and wrong has not been disproven by science. We can talk about the morality of an issue without appealing to controversial literature of the ancient world. To use the Bible is to use a document that has been unequivocally proven to be full of error.

As a side not, I am not trying to demean the allegorical worth of Biblical or any other religious stories. The New Testament in particular is full of the right kind ideas in my opinion. I see no problem with absorbing Jesus’ teachings about love and then trying to bring an understanding of compassion to public discourse.

To choose a specific passage and to say “we have to do X because Y is written in this book” is absolutely unacceptable. Just because something has been written down doesn’t mean it has any worth–until it becomes clear that it is unequivocally correct. Until then it is just a collection of words on a page.[/quote]

Morality isn’t something that can be proven or disproven. It’s a matter of oughts and ought nots.[/quote]

But legality should not be based upon a morality which is in turn based upon controversial religious teachings. We’ll save that mess for the Taliban.

If you introduce a piece of legislation and I can boil down your reasoning to “because it says so in the Bible,” that piece of legislation is fundamentally flawed–the Bible (and every other major religious book) was long ago proven to be absolutely full of shit. You can absorb its teachings for your personal life–and you’ll most likely be a good man/woman-- but its flaws are too glaringly obvious for it to be taken seriously as a basis for legality.

Scenario:

Congressman A: I am introducing/opposed to X legislation on religious (Christian) grounds. The Bible says that it is necessary/immoral.
Congressman B: But the Bible also says that _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (insert any of the thousands of claims made in the Old/New Testaments that have been proven to be false). Therefore, it is not a trustworthy source of legal guidance.

Once again, I have absolutely no problem with people’s personal beliefs. When I suffer for my neighbor’s superstitions, however, sparks will fly.

34

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
Religion is specific to the individual. Do not hold me to your beliefs. Is that a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp? It shouldn’t be.

[/quote]

That’s not what religion is, though. When enough people believe the same thing, it will always happen that they will support laws that try to make others behave in the way they believe they should. In any population where there is a dominant religion, the culture is dominated by that religion, and to a greater or lesser extent, the laws as well.

Thats why it matters what other people believe.[/quote]

Well, when you get the where with all to go start a country of your own, you can make it how ever you like.

Until then STFU.

35

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
Religion is specific to the individual. Do not hold me to your beliefs. Is that a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp? It shouldn’t be.

[/quote]

That’s not what religion is, though. When enough people believe the same thing, it will always happen that they will support laws that try to make others behave in the way they believe they should. In any population where there is a dominant religion, the culture is dominated by that religion, and to a greater or lesser extent, the laws as well.

Thats why it matters what other people believe.[/quote]

Well, when you get the where with all to go start a country of your own, you can make it how ever you like.

Until then STFU.
[/quote]

Wow. Please, die in a fire. Soon.

36

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Reygekan wrote:
Religion is specific to the individual. Do not hold me to your beliefs. Is that a difficult concept for anyone here to grasp? It shouldn’t be.

[/quote]

That’s not what religion is, though. When enough people believe the same thing, it will always happen that they will support laws that try to make others behave in the way they believe they should. In any population where there is a dominant religion, the culture is dominated by that religion, and to a greater or lesser extent, the laws as well.

Thats why it matters what other people believe.[/quote]

Well, when you get the where with all to go start a country of your own, you can make it how ever you like.

Until then STFU.
[/quote]

Wow. Please, die in a fire. Soon.[/quote]

Whats with the hellfire and brimstone, man?

You aren’t in the majority, and you know that the majority rules, so whats your beef with the concept?

Gather like minded people, lay claim to some land with good resources, and manifest some destiny you sackless knitwit.(besides san fran. That is still technically ours)

I’d tell you to die in a fire too, but with this hell of businesses closing on sundays that you have to live in it would be redundant.

37

This is getting into lol territory

38

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
This is getting into lol territory[/quote]

I hope so. The Academy Awards were on and I was bored out of my freakin mind.

Really though, I bet ole Cappn planet up there isn’t even politically active locally, but wants to bitch about the work of people who had the balls and ability to start their own freakin country.

Typical wannabe intellectuals in this thread. Motor mouth with lead in their asses.

39

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
This is getting into lol territory[/quote]

I hope so. The Academy Awards were on and I was bored out of my freakin mind.

Really though, I bet ole Cappn planet up there isn’t even politically active locally, but wants to bitch about the work of people who had the balls and ability to start their own freakin country.

Typical wannabe intellectuals in this thread. Motor mouth with lead in their asses.

[/quote]

You keep talking about the people that “had the balls and ability to start their own freakin country.” You do realize that the founders would have come down on the side of people wishing to keep religion out of politics, right? They were almost universally Deists and Agnostics. The Jefferson Bible–the publication of which would today be seen as sacrilegious–consisted of the New Testament minus all supernatural bullshit: no angels, no Trinity, no resurrection,no prophecies.

The Founders were Enlightenment thinkers, and the Enlightenment was the enemy of the Church. They championed reason and distrusted faith.

40

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
This is getting into lol territory[/quote]

I hope so. The Academy Awards were on and I was bored out of my freakin mind.

Really though, I bet ole Cappn planet up there isn’t even politically active locally, but wants to bitch about the work of people who had the balls and ability to start their own freakin country.

Typical wannabe intellectuals in this thread. Motor mouth with lead in their asses.

[/quote]

You keep talking about the people that “had the balls and ability to start their own freakin country.” You do realize that the founders would have come down on the side of people wishing to keep religion out of politics, right? They were almost universally Deists and Agnostics. The Jefferson Bible–the publication of which would today be seen as sacrilegious–consisted of the New Testament minus all supernatural bullshit: no angels, no Trinity, no resurrection,no prophecies.

The Founders were Enlightenment thinkers, and the Enlightenment was the enemy of the Church. They championed reason and distrusted faith.[/quote]

Yeah, says you. You may also want to consider that enlightenment and faith are not mutually exclusive.
Also, if what you hypothesize is true, how did these christian values that people are so hung up on, like “In God We Trust” printed on our money, show up in this “enlightened” groups documents?

Maybe these enlightened people saw a higher social function of faith than the understanding that is being expressed in this thread? Like striving to become something better, being part of a greater good, or a myriad of other socially redeeming values that are woven through christianity and the documents that established the U.S. as a soveriegn nation.