Why Aren't The Last Reps Easiest?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Majin wrote:
As for last reps, I know the nerves are getting stressed but probably not more fibers. Especially since it’s a fact that more units recruited allows for lifting faster not slower.
[/quote]

So, fatigue has nothing to do with it, lactic acid has nothing to do with it, mental fatigue has nothing to do with it, perception of the weight lifted has nothing to do with it…just fibers?

Since “fibers” aren’t the only factor we have to worry about when trying to build the most size possible, why make it seem like the number of fibers firing alone is all we need to consider when trying to make the most progress?

If the strongest and fastest muscle fibers fire initially, is anyone now saying that the fibers that are not fatigued initially don’t aid in muscle hypertrophy at all?

22

[quote]keaster wrote:
One thing I dont understand about this whole thing is that it cant help us build muscle faster than is physiologically possible.

And if it is such a breakthrough, why are so many people already getting big and strong using the “old school” methods.

[/quote]

There is nothing new under the sun. There is only new packaging of old shit.

I’ve asked before why so many of the people who latch onto things like this seem to be carrying the least amount of muscle mass. I guess that is a nonissue…somehow.

23

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is why most people who simply worry about what “should” work are usually so much smaller than those who also pay attention to what IS working and HAS worked for decades.[/quote]

Yea, but try tellin’ the schmucks about that. They’ll raise thier little arms in anger.

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Majin wrote:
As for last reps, I know the nerves are getting stressed but probably not more fibers. Especially since it’s a fact that more units recruited allows for lifting faster not slower.

So, fatigue has nothing to do with it, lactic acid has nothing to do with it, mental fatigue has nothing to do with it, perception of the weight lifted has nothing to do with it…just fibers? [/quote]

Fatigue of what? Fibers. Lactic acid and mental tiredness are all due to stress on the nervous system which wouldn’t be as stressed had the fibers not been overtaxed.

Nobody said this was ONLY about fibers or motor units, it was about how the nervous system reacts to stress and what it’s doing about it. Well what it does is recruit mu’s in ascending order. Once the strongest ones are done the body lets you know it’s going downhill from there. So what you’re doing to keep on is send a stronger nerve signal and get a few more reps in, as the number of involved muscle drops.

I mean what else can it be? Are there secret slices of meat that only get charged if you’re about to pop a vein? I strained on the last reps a billion times myself…

25

Holy crap a photo of a rhino attacking a car, what the??? the internet has a picture of anything you can think of

sentoguy I agree with you except what about fast twitch fibers that are under-developed? what about the case where, a person can lift the weight using their slow twitch fibers for quite a few reps but after awhile, their slow twitchers fatigue and their fast twitch fibers kick in? this is probably more the case in the novice. Surely I am not the only person out there who has actually experienced the reps getting easier towards the end of a set (note this is not the usual case)

or to put it another way, if, to lift the weight in the first place, you are recruiting slow twitch + whatever fast twitch is needed, and then the fast twitch is fatigued, you can’t be still lifting using only the slow twitch fibers because they weren’t enough to lift it in the first place and they certainly aren’t any better at the end of the set.

you are letting the fast twitch fibers that started the set - your best developed ones, the ones you body likes to recruit - they become less effective and other, less trained fast twitch fibers - ones that your body rarely recruits - start to kick in. But they are really pathetic so the reps get harder and harder.

of course it is never that black and white.

I hope people can agree that you never recruit ALL your fast twitch fibers, not even in highly trained athletes at maximum effort, the only time full recruitment happens is with artificial stimulation or perhaps, with insane people.

I think the whole point of this is that within a single muscle, there are muscle fibers less developed than others in the same muscle, and that through training these fibers can be brought up to a higher standard. Our bodies try to be efficient by only keeping fibers at a peak if they are needed, and if not, shrink them down. Your body doesn’t shrink down all fast twitch fibers equally, it keeps some better than others.

Similarly it doesn’t strengthen them equally. Skinny guys out there who have always been small and weak, still have the same fibers as when they are eventually big and strong. When they are halfway there, they don’t have all their fast twitch fibers equally developed, expanded, recruited. Not until they train themselves to need them.

26

Call me silly, but I think people are usin’ their tinkers too much.

27

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
Call me silly, but I think people are usin’ their tinkers too much.[/quote]

word.

28

Chad’s article would be great if it were applied to strength and not so much to muscle hypertrophy. But then again I think it has been well established that high velocity reps with moderate to heavy weight builds speed and strength.

One of the main points is that, the more you are pushing hypertrophy, for many people anyway, the nervous system is not as important as it is made out to be, and TUT and fatigue is fairly important. Sure this is not optimal for running, jumping etc… but all that goes out the window when hypertrophy is the primary and sometimes only goal.

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[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Chad’s article would be great if it were applied to strength and not so much to muscle hypertrophy. But then again I think it has been well established that high velocity reps with moderate to heavy weight builds speed and strength.

One of the main points is that, the more you are pushing hypertrophy, for many people anyway, the nervous system is not as important as it is made out to be, and TUT and fatigue is fairly important. Sure this is not optimal for running, jumping etc… but all that goes out the window when hypertrophy is the primary and sometimes only goal.[/quote]

I disagree. I think the person who believes his CNS is that far down on the list of priorities when training for hypertrophy is also the guy who won’t be seeing too much growth. He definitely won’t ever stand out as “extreme”.

30

[quote]Majin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Majin wrote:
As for last reps, I know the nerves are getting stressed but probably not more fibers. Especially since it’s a fact that more units recruited allows for lifting faster not slower.

So, fatigue has nothing to do with it, lactic acid has nothing to do with it, mental fatigue has nothing to do with it, perception of the weight lifted has nothing to do with it…just fibers?

Fatigue of what? Fibers. Lactic acid and mental tiredness are all due to stress on the nervous system which wouldn’t be as stressed had the fibers not been overtaxed. [/quote]

Tell that to the med school student who just pulled an all nighter. There are other forms of stress and the point was how outside stress can relate to the weight you lift or even your perception of a certain weight. Also, there are tons of people who “THINK” they are training extremely hard…until someone breaks that mental barrier and shows them they could be going a hell of a lot heavier.

[quote]
I mean what else can it be? Are there secret slices of meat that only get charged if you’re about to pop a vein? I strained on the last reps a billion times myself…[/quote]

…and I would assume from your posts, as I don’t know you personally like a couple of others on this site, that you are much more well trained than the average newbie on this site.

Even getting to the level where you know what true “vein popping” workouts are took several years of training your CNS to accept more and more load. Had you begun simply stopping when it got hard or when the weight slowed down, how much farther behind do you think you would be now in terms what your body could handle?

That is essentially what I’m getting at. Hypertrophy isn’t simply about focusing on the muscle fibers. You don’t start out as a rank beginner and approach this as if someone’s muscle fibers are ready to be relied on to tell you when to stop alone.

Their muscles won’t be trained and their minds won’t be trained to deal with extreme stress…the type of stress that leads to anywhere near “extreme development”.

31

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
10 people start pushing the car. 6 are marathon runners, 2 are 800m runners and 2 are weighlifters.

They get tired after awhile.

You send in 5 more people. They one day could be strongmen or powerlifters. But at the moment, they are skinny pencil necks who get tired real easy and can’t squat half their bodyweight.

They join in one at a time, and the car keeps moving at the same speed despite the fact that everyone is tired.

After awhile, nobody can push anymore.

There are still another 8 people waiting who never pushed the car, because you are not stupid enough to send all 23 people at once, because they would get trampled.

Now a rhino is coming and you better move that car - all 23 people push, it doesn’t move that fast but you escape the rhino. Nobody knows why the rhino wanted the car.

If you could recruit all your muscle fibers at once you’d rip things - people do that all the time - but even staying way below that level of exertion you do a lot of damage that takes a lot of time to recover from. Whether that is an extra day or week doesn’t matter as long as you recover.

I don’t know why anyone is confused or surprised by any of this.

But the fact that people are means it is an important article to learn ''em good.[/quote]

Good point, goes along with what I was saying in the other thread.

(IMO) The body doesn’t shut down because muscle fibers become fatigued; the body shuts a muscle down because (a)its about to cause some sort of injury or (b) the brain decides its not that important and needs to conserve the energy.

32

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…until someone breaks that mental barrier and shows them they could be going a hell of a lot heavier.[/quote]

Yes, that one I didn’t include, but it seems like an external issue of general experience rather than the guts where the person knows what they’re doing.

I went all the way and far beyond, yes. I think the most comical one was when my head/facial muscles were sore. As far as the actual benefit, I’d say having done it is more important than doing it.

[quote]That is essentially what I’m getting at. Hypertrophy isn’t simply about focusing on the muscle fibers. You don’t start out as a rank beginner and approach this as if someone’s muscle fibers are ready to be relied on to tell you when to stop alone.

Their muscles won’t be trained and their minds won’t be trained to deal with extreme stress…the type of stress that leads to anywhere near “extreme development”.[/quote]

Well, I see. And you’re correct. 90% of the people reading this have no clue about the 90% of the shit that gets you places. If that’s the main point then we have no argument. I remember him making a disclaimer with training articles that you shouldn’t do this until you have at least a year under you.

Which is why I was thinking as to what made sense from my experience and not what most posters were, I guess.

I really don’t think there’s a way of stopping the tide by making authors present the info differently anymore. If someone’s looking for the end-all holy grail there’s no way they can just read an article and continue with their normal training.

I even saw a thread where a kid was asking whether he should drop his current six-week miracle program to start off with a fresh-baked one that just came out. LOL, it’s becoming like crack, they’re begging for a new one every day now.

33

The below quote is taking from Thib’s “Muscles for Athletes, Part I” article, found here:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1494202

I find it intriguing that two very successful coaches can have such differing views on training. Be sure to read tips #5,6, and 7.

I have had great success training according to the above guidelines. Also, almost every big muscular person I know has trained using a similar approach.

What really concerns me about CW’s “new discovery” is that all of the small / weak lifters and newbs on this site will refer to his article to try and and justify or rationalize their lack of intensity in the weight room.

34

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sorry, Tim, but your understanding of the size principle is wrong.
Sentoguy[/quote]

Sentoguy - I don’t believe you read my post correctly. Your description of the size principle and mine are the same as I see it, although we may feel it applies to this situation differently.

Clearly you recruit your smaller, weaker muscle fibers first and then move on to recruit your bigger, larger muscle fibers. I assume you are not debating this?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
CW’s point in asking the question, “if the last few reps in a high intensity set really do recruit extra muscle fibers, then why aren’t the last few reps the easiest?” is that he is trying to show that you DON’T recruit more muscle fibers during the last few reps of a high intensity set.
Sentoguy[/quote]

That was the whole point of my post. It should be clear from scientific and practical evidence that you have recruited more motor units after the last reps then the first. I will be happy to disagree with anyone that says otherwise.

Answer this simple question. You could bench 225x2 or 225x10, which set would leave the greatest percentage of the muscle and its motor units untrained?

If you would like to design a more “accurate” chart or if you want me to send it to you to modify I would be happy to look over the changes and share my thoughts on them.

Good luck with your lifting,

Tim

35

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Even getting to the level where you know what true “vein popping” workouts are took several years of training your CNS to accept more and more load. Had you begun simply stopping when it got hard or when the weight slowed down, how much farther behind do you think you would be now in terms what your body could handle?

That is essentially what I’m getting at. Hypertrophy isn’t simply about focusing on the muscle fibers. You don’t start out as a rank beginner and approach this as if someone’s muscle fibers are ready to be relied on to tell you when to stop alone.

Their muscles won’t be trained and their minds won’t be trained to deal with extreme stress…the type of stress that leads to anywhere near “extreme development”.
[/quote]

Good post, that is what I was getting at by saying that sometimes you have to force your body to learn to recruit more motor units.

36

TPA - thanks for the post. Did you notice number 3?

[quote]tpa wrote:
3. HTMUs can also be brought into play when the fatigue in the intermediate threshold fibers leads to an insufficient force production; then the HTMUs must be recruited. This is why during “normal” bodybuilding-type sets, THE MOST EFFECTIVE REPS ARE THE LAST ONES. (emphasis added)
[/quote]

37

[quote]tpa wrote:
I find it intriguing that two very successful coaches can have such differing views on training. Be sure to read tips #5,6, and 7.[/quote]

Can they both be right? From my own practical experience in the gym, I find that CT’s advice is right on the money. Some of CW’s interesting theories seem great in a labratory/theoretical setting but haven’t been ‘battle tested’ yet (the only proof I’ve seen so far is a scrawny housewife with a fake tan and fake tits, hardly compelling evidence IMO).

Anyways, although I get annoyed with CW’s constant ridiculous hyped marketing schemes, I bet I could make some good gains on one of his programs. But then again, I’ve made good gains on every program that I’ve ever tried (while some people make shitty gains no matter what system they use), which has more to do with my work ethic than the superiority of any particular training method.

The bottom line… whatever style/system/method/voodoo/cross-shit you’re doing, work our ass off in the gym, eat/rest enough to recover and grow.

The biggest strongest guys I know don’t even know who CT and CW are. If they can get big and strong with only some basic knowledge, then you can too.

38

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sorry, Tim, but your understanding of the size principle is wrong. Go back and read CW’s explanation again. Or as Prof X suggested, go get yourself a college level exercise physiology or biology text book.

The size principle is based on required amounts of force, not on number of repetitions in a set or fatigue. Basically the smallest motor units are recruited first. These motor units are the most fatigue resistant but also have the least force producing potential. Think in terms of just every day hand gestures or picking up a pencil.

As more force is required the body recruits motor units with higher and higher force producing potential, but which are much less resistant to fatigue.

For instance, if you try to pick up a weight that is nearing the amount of weight that you can only pick up once your body will first recruit the smallest motor units, however they won’t be able to perform the task. So, it’ll recruit bigger and bigger motor units until either you lift the weight or give up because you are incapable of lifting the weight.

This has nothing to do with reps in a set or fatigue. The same goes for speed. The greater the acceleration of the mass, the greater the force, thus the greater the motor unit recruitment.

CW’s point in asking the question, “if the last few reps in a high intensity set really do recruit extra muscle fibers, then why aren’t the last few reps the easiest?” is that he is trying to show that you DON’T recruit more muscle fibers during the last few reps of a high intensity set.

That’s actually a question that I’ve posed before on this site in regards to ways to recruit all of your voluntary muscle fibers, I came to the same conclusion that CW seems to have.

What CW is saying is that if you are lifting a high enough percentage of 1RM (anything 85% or greater), or moving the weight with maximum speed, then due to the size principle you are already recruiting every possible motor unit/muscle fiber on the very first rep of the set.

The reason that the reps get more difficult as the set goes on is due to several factors.

  1. Since the type 2b/FF muscle fibers/motor units are the quickest to fatigue, the smaller less powerful muscle fibers are now less easily able to move the weight (or move it as quickly). This is how/why drop sets work.

  2. Hydrogen ion build up. After approximately 10 seconds your body switches from your ATP-CP system to Glycolysis which produces lactic acid as a by product. Now, some of this lactic acid is buffered thus producing lactate which can then be used as more fuel. However, there are also hydrogen atoms that build up in the muscle and cause interference between actin and myosin crossbridges, thus inhibiting contraction. This hydrogen ion build up is responsible for the “burn” that you feel during exercise.

The point is that if the last few reps really did recruit larger more powerful muscle fibers, then those reps would be easier. In fact, if your understanding of the size principle was correct, then you would never reach failure because the more reps/fatigue encountered in a set the stronger you would get. Therefore, he is suggesting that this line of thinking is incorrect.

Also, unfortunately your graph is also incorrect. The bars should be up near the “Theoretical Maximal Recruitment” line right from rep #1. And, the orange should start from the top down, not the bottom up. The smallest most fatigue resistant fibers/MU’s that are always recruited during any physical movement are ridiculously fatigue resistant. They can literally go on for days. Just think, can you walk for longer, or run for longer. Why? After all you are using the same muscles?

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Outstanding post!

40

If the last reps were the easiest, you could continue lifting all day forever. Your body can’t simply withstand unlimited stress. Muscles fatigue. Think about it. It’s only common sense.