To Cycomiko: Let me guess, you’re not a big Atkins fan, huh? I agree that there are limitations to this diet (as with virtually every other…it’s very much a matter of determining which liabilities you’re best able to tolerate), but there is compelling research that much of what the ketogenic proponents claim is true.
Read some of Lyle McDonald’s work…very well researched, and he also acts as his own guinea pig for subjective analysis. I believe that his general conclusion is that there is no great percentage difference in fat loss via ketogenic diets, but that ketosis imparts a hunger-blunting effect that enables users to better tolerate calorie deficits. The bottom line, then, is that dieters would tend to stick with such a diet longer than they would with, say, an isocaloric diet. I’ve found it true in my own mad-scientist experiments as well…severe calorie reductions while including carbs is a bear, whereas such reductions while ketogenic are quite tolerable (not that I’d prescibe such things for those worried about strength, performance, etc., at least not in the long term. I’ve since learned to use more of a Targeted Ketogenic approach, but that’s a different tangent…).
I’m willing to bet that most Atkins followers don’t bother logging calories, P and F grams, etc. Tough to call such a system a diet at all…and it’s no wonder why so many Atkins “followers” are chubby. But McDonald very emphatically points out that, if used properly, ketogenic diets are a good tool for weight loss.
[quote]To Cycomiko: Let me guess, you’re not a big Atkins fan, huh? I agree that there are limitations to this diet[/quote]Not atkins per se, any diet is workable, but the way most sheeple do atkins is an excuse to be pigs eating any particular cut of food possible. While Saturates are not bad in average quantities in an active population, most atkinites think that you can eat unlimited quantities of it.
[quote]But McDonald very emphatically points out that, if used properly, ketogenic diets are a good tool for weight loss. [/quote]Thats because lyle follows research, and if you read the papers you will get a similar idea. Even pubmed doesnt cover some papers, because they are too old.
“Not atkins per se, any diet is workable, but the way most sheeple do atkins is an excuse to be pigs eating any particular cut of food possible. While Saturates are not bad in average quantities in an active population, most atkinites think that you can eat unlimited quantities of it.”
why don’t you prove what you’re saying. you’re under the false impression that large amounts of saturated fat are proven without a doubt to be harmful to your health. please prove this statement before asking other people to prove things.
Morg, you seem to like regurgitating what others say.
Saturates (generally the more cholesterolemic ones) are the most commonly negative food that you can get. Then combine it with the average atkinites low fibre, low fruit and vegetable consumption,and you have a good recipe for health problems. Some saturates in the diet are good (but funnily enough, while everyone hammers carbs for being ‘non essential’ saturates are not essential either.)but excesses are not.
What do you think would happen if you put Nutritional recommendations saying eat higher levels of fat? considering how stupid the average person is?
you say i’m regurgitating what others say? you sure you’re not looking in a mirror? i ask for proof and you just say some random things that sound like something a politically correct nutritionist would say
I think that people like the “instant” gratification that Atkins gives them. People think: “I’ve been dieting for a whole WEEK now… where’s my weight loss?”
With Atkins, they get that loss. It may be water weight, but they like it anyway.
Oh well. I think that Atkins got a lot right, and he deserves credit for that. I was reading the new Muscle Media in the supermarket today, and Billy P. goes off on the poor dead guy. Now BP got some things right, too, don’t get me wrong… (6 meals a day, anyone?) but the problem is that you have a bunch of people, and everybody only has a chunk of “the truth”. Everyone–or their followers–is/are too invested in their own personal system or way of doing things to see that there are a lot of good ways to get to your goal. This week’s T-mag talked about that a little bit when someone wrote in about clubbells. It’s all about putting things in their larger contexts.
Atkins is right about a lot of stuff–but you have to actually read what he has to say about that stuff (i.e. “get the larger context”) before you can understand where he goes off the tracks. The problem is that you have people making decisions based on essentially nothing. Hot dogs and cheez-whiz, anyone?
Who was the person who said “make things as simple as possible, but no simpler.”?
Was that Einstein? Where’s Cupcake when you need him?
Anyway, I think the problem is that people are making things too simple. While cutting carbs is a great idea, people still think they can eat as many low-carb bars and fatty meats as they can stuff down their fat-assed gullets. They have no idea about balanced fat intakes. (See NeilG for an–admittedly extremist–example of this phenomenon.) The problem is that the whole approach is a band-aid rather than a long-term solution. And while Atkins was working towards providing long term solutions near his death (“Atkins for Life”, anyone?) his “solutions” included keeping most people at 50g of carbs or less per day. For the rest of their lives. That just doesn’t seem like “balance” to me. Granted, I think the hundreds of grams of sugar that the average American eats every day is way too much. But never eating more than 50g of carbs a day seems overly reactionary and simplistic, when there are so many other things to take into account.
At the risk of getting flamed, my 2 cents on this are
Of course ketogenic diets work, I am of the opinion that almost every diet has the potential to work, its just a question of the dedication of the dieter.
But for the general population I dont think a keto diet makes sense, it is extreme and most people have many dietary issues that if corrected they’ll be on the path to fat loss anyway.
For someone who is very overweight, or suffers from an illness or injury which prevents them from getting some exercise then a keto diet might be the best option to get their weight under control. On the other extreme is probably many Tmag readers. People with already pretty low bodyfat or lots of muscle they want to preserve, or people looking to get lean in a hurry for a contest or something can also benefit from keto dieting.
But for the average dieter (at least in the US) who only needs to lose say 15-30 pounds, I think they’d benefit more from making simple dietary changes, and increasing thier exercise level and they’d be on the path to fat loss. To suggest that anyone who needs to lose a moderate amount of weight should do a ketogenic diet is wrong in my opinion. Simple things like replace white bread with wheat; lay off the sugar laden “diet” foods; cut out the garbage empty calorie foods; are what people should be doing to lose fat, along with getting more physical activity of course.
Keto is an extreme approach to fat loss and it will best serve people in extreme circumstances. Im not anti keto at all, Ive done a ckd before and Ill do it again. But the average American diet suffers from so many nutritional issues which should be corrected first. Only then can people claim “eat less, exercise more” isnt working for them.
It seems that so many people are trying to give atkins and other keto diets the “one size fits all” stamp of approval, which is exactly the root of a lot of the nutritional problems the USDA and similar government groups face. They have been trying to make recommendations that cover the entire population, regardless of lifestyle, activity level, genetic and other considerations, and it just doesnt work like that.
morg - whats the last keto diet research you have read?
and dont just say lyles book
The research shows how people take to the atkins style diet, and it is not in a good way. However, most people cant last 2 weeks on it anyway, so its not going to become a WOL for most.
Zulu - I could be classed as a nutritionist, but probably just as much as Berardi could be classed as a nutritionist.
While some keto diets are useful, and any “diet” is good if it results in weight loss, the way people go about Atkins means that it would NEVER become nutritional recommendations (whether the current ones are ‘wrong’ or not. Also remember, nutritional recommendations are for a population, not the individual).
Oh, yeah, to reiterate the major point i have been saying for years. Go read Berardis latest article.
If you want a releatively recent review of the subject area, go get Friedman MR, King J, Kennedy E. Popular Diets: A scientific review. Obes Res 2001;9suppl:1S-40S
It’s funny, when I’m cutting people always ask, “Oh, are you on Atkins?” Then, they look at me with deer eyes when I say, “No, this is another diet. I haven’t even read The Atkins Diet.”
I can’t imagine that most people follow the diet correctly. I’ll guess many people eat too many carbs without realizing it.
What I said, is to reinforce an idea I have been pushing for the last few years. Read Berardis latest article
and you will notice that article doesnt say any diet is better htan others.
is that too challanging for you.
Or do you have some evidence that the atkins dietary style is better than others.
he says how no one diet is better than another, then he makes a list that describes his diet as “time tested” techniques for dieting that work. riiiight.
you need research to show you the obvious? i.e. better insulin sensitivity leading to better lean mass gains, better anabolic hormones (testosterone being the biggest, and it’s higher with larger amounts of animal fats. not to mention how anabolic insulin is.) do you also need to be pointed out the fact that high levels of carbs hinders the immune system as well?
also, it’s pretty much impossible to eat high carb unless you’re eating grains and refined carbs. well, i don’t see the point in discussing this. nevermind. why don’t you ask anyone like poliquin, di pasquale, or serrano? oh wait - they’re not berardi!