Jay-Z is better and was better. Better flow, better lyrics and has the longeviity. This is why he IS the G.O.A.T.
[quote]younggully wrote:
jay -z has done more for hip hop than eminem. if em was black he’d be just another rapper.[/quote]
eh, I wouldn’t say that younggully … he’d still be a good ass rapper, he wouldn’t get the exposure he does, but you can’t take away from his flow and lyrical gymnastics and delivery. And all Jay-Z has done for hip hop is blueprint and reasonable doubt. All his other albums have 2 or 3 gems on them and a lot of mediocrity in between. I’m not saying Eminem’s albums haven’t been like that either, and I’m not saying Jay-Z hasn’t worked for what he’s accomplished, but the fact is Eminem is a good rapper and Jay-Z isn’t the savior of hip hop a lot of people make him out to be. He’s just a popular rapper with a great business sense.
“If he was black he’d be just another rapper” ?
That’s said alot but is probably the stupidest thing. Eminem shits on most black rappers and is actually IGNORED by most because he is white.
As for jayz being the GOAT? You can’t be serious. I know MTV says he is, but you have got to be fucking kidding. If you listen to every one of Jayz’s songs and compare that to NAS and EMINEM’s catalog, Jayz would not even enter the conversation. Jay-z is one of the best no doubt, but he is WAY over rated.
Again, lyrically, EMINEM is above and beyond him. And consistently, NAS has been the better out them three. If I had to pick a true GOAT, I can list Rakim and KRS-ONE on the top and EM, NAS and PAC to top off the 5.
Pac and Big would be much higher had their careers not been cut short…
And “MC means move the crowd” can not be defined like it was back in the day. If you wanna define a GREAT MC by “moving the crowd”, where does Soulja Boy stand? Flo Rida? Because as much of a trend setter jay-z was with your MSG and Throwbacks examples, the autotune and bubble gum rappers of today move more people than Jayz.
[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
If you listen to every one of Jayz’s songs and compare that to NAS and EMINEM’s catalog, Jayz would not even enter the conversation.[/quote]
Because of everyone of Jay’s songs in his catalog, compared to anyone else is why he is considered the G.O.A.T. It sounds like you haven’t listened to any of Jay’s music besides his singles.
[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
About time you showed up!
That’s why I said it was a real debate over who outshined who on the song. I agree on the realness of jay’s verses and certainly think it was a great verse. But, context isn’t just the only thing to account on a song. That’s why we don’t see Immortal Technique, MF doom, Talib Kweli and others being mentioned in the GOAT conversation, is because they basically don’t have any “flow”. And those guys are as “real as it gets”.
If you listened to the song over and over, Em’s flow is just absolutely ridiculous, plus his rhymes and the way he structured his verses are incredible.
Why is BIGGIE considered by many as GOAT? Mainly because of his incredible flow and clever rhymes. And his subject? Killing people, raping women, selling drugs and gangbangin’. That was him for most of his short career.
It’s not necessarily what you talk about its how you say it. Em took this song and slayed it. He flowed like an instrument. And jay ain’t even top 5 really. Lyrically, he’s not all that. His flow is suspect and to be honest, the guy is over rated. The only things going for him are Beyonce and his dough.
Plus, if the two FREESTYLED EM would murder JAYz and I think that’s something we can all agree on.
[/quote]
x2 on all this.
I personally enjoy listening to the clever construction of the verse more than content, however I also enjoy good lyrics.
Who do I think was better in this song? Eminem hands down. He just “flows like an instrument.”
When I look at the lyrics Ct. Rocula posted, eminem just had phenomenal flow. That’s why I like listening to twista, bone thugs, and rehab. The rhyming, delivery, and the speed that they do it is just so good.
Well, I do only have Blueprint and The Black Album(his best work IMO) so you can probably tell I’m not a huge Jayz fan. But if you look at his body of work, the only thing impressive about him is that he puts out alot of material. But quantity doesn’t always mean quality(look at LL cool J).
And really, if you compare him to NAS, he wouldn’t fare much better than he would if you compared him to EM, LYRICALLY.
And where does this GOAT thing really come from? Because Lyrically, I can name 10 guys who can out rhyme him. On subjects, Tupac, Immortal Technique, Rakim, KRS-ONE and NAS basically talk about the same things that he does. And his flow is by sub par. If you talk about the materials he puts out, again LL cool J tops him and lil wayne is putting out shit more frequently. So, GOAT? I don’t think so. Not even close. He is one of the best though, and I respect jay alot like almost everyone in the game.
As a poster above me mentioned, he has lots of respect for his realism and because of what hes done/where hes from. His lyrics are often about this and people respect that. Also, his lyrics (and lyrics in general) aren’t just about rhyming. The picture he paints, the metaphors and punchlines he builds ON TOP of the way he strings it all together with his flow + his longevity make him mentioned as the G.O.A.T.
I’m not bashing anyone else like Em or NAS, I’m just making my case for Jay.
That’s the thing about ART, there isn’t really a clear and consice definition of what makes it BETTER than what others are doing.
If you like lyrics, it’s no question that Eminem rules that category. Noone can rhyme like him, some can do it in a single verse here and there, but he’s so consistent with it it’s ridiculous.
I too think Jay-Z is overrated, simply from those people saying he’s the best. I think he’s one of the best, but plenty who are better. But in terms of swagger and just being a general example of the hip-hop lifestyle, Jay does get a lot of credit. As well as the business aspect.
Anyone who brings up beats is just grasping at straws. Jay-Z does not make his own beats (on the flip side, Em does make SOME of his own) and also has the luxury of having most of the greatest producers of all time making beats for him. In fact, I’ll go as far as to say that if it wasn’t for Timbaland, Neptunes, etc., he wouldn’t be as popular, since most of them are the reason his songs move crowds (take note of who made the beats on all his hot singles throughout the years). Speaking of crowds… people who are arguing popularity are also grasping at straws, since most people who listen to music are sheep who will automatically think the next hot thing is the best. Radio stations in DC are on Lil Wayne’s jock hard, I can’t stand it. The dude doesn’t even write his own rhymes, fucking sheep. And all the kids in my area are wearing tight Hollister looking clothes cuz Wayne did it, not even realizing they’re jocking a white-surfer dude style. A bunch of fucking sheep.
Oh and by the way, Renegades was originally a Em and Royce song. Ct. Rockula, I hope you know about this. Em does not say anything about a “jigga joint”, he’s omitting “it’s Royce, he’s the king of Detroit and I’m the sinister…”. And yes, Royce’s verses were also better than Jay’s (not that his were bad, he was just overshadowed by better lyricists) and also, yes, Em made the beat, too. It’s an Eminem song that Jay’s record company gaffled onto the Blueprint (which was also a name he stole from KRS, don’t even get me started on everything Jay steals from other people in the industry, including many, many rhymes). Also the reason why he added another verse to the radio version of Big Pimpin, he was being outshined by UGK.
[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
Well, I do only have Blueprint and The Black Album(his best work IMO) so you can probably tell I’m not a huge Jayz fan. But if you look at his body of work, the only thing impressive about him is that he puts out alot of material. But quantity doesn’t always mean quality(look at LL cool J).
And really, if you compare him to NAS, he wouldn’t fare much better than he would if you compared him to EM, LYRICALLY.
And where does this GOAT thing really come from? Because Lyrically, I can name 10 guys who can out rhyme him. On subjects, Tupac, Immortal Technique, Rakim, KRS-ONE and NAS basically talk about the same things that he does. And his flow is by sub par. If you talk about the materials he puts out, again LL cool J tops him and lil wayne is putting out shit more frequently. So, GOAT? I don’t think so. Not even close. He is one of the best though, and I respect jay alot like almost everyone in the game.[/quote]
Oooo … only thing I’m going to disagree with is the Black Album comment? Really? You think THAT was his best work? Better than Blueprint? Just the fact that you said that makes me question you lol … Song Cry ALONE beats out Black Album. Period. Not to mention The Takeover, The Ruler’s Back, You Don’t Know, Blueprint, … matter of fact the only song I skip over on Blueprint is the song with R.Kelly. Black Album, while it is a good hip hop album, better than most of the stuff out today, is CRAP compared to Blueprint. Next you’re gonna say Kingdom Come is better than Reasonable Doubt
Um, his best work were his early albums. Reasonable Doubt, in particular
They’re both WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY overrated. Eminem has some dope underground stuff, but most of his studio shit sucks balls. Jay-Z sucked after his first two albums, and I’ve never understood the love he gets. He’s a decent rapper [at best] with marginal lyrical abilities and mostly stolen lyrical content.
Um, none of Eminem show “sucked balls”, if you wanted to say a handful of songs in his other albums were bad, it would be open for argument at most. Please don’t start listing no name underground rappers as people who are not overrated. That is getting so old… it’s ok if you like them more, but don’t say people suck because you don’t like them.
[quote]polo77j wrote:
B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
Well, I do only have Blueprint and The Black Album(his best work IMO) so you can probably tell I’m not a huge Jayz fan. But if you look at his body of work, the only thing impressive about him is that he puts out alot of material. But quantity doesn’t always mean quality(look at LL cool J).
And really, if you compare him to NAS, he wouldn’t fare much better than he would if you compared him to EM, LYRICALLY.
And where does this GOAT thing really come from? Because Lyrically, I can name 10 guys who can out rhyme him. On subjects, Tupac, Immortal Technique, Rakim, KRS-ONE and NAS basically talk about the same things that he does. And his flow is by sub par. If you talk about the materials he puts out, again LL cool J tops him and lil wayne is putting out shit more frequently. So, GOAT? I don’t think so. Not even close. He is one of the best though, and I respect jay alot like almost everyone in the game.
Oooo … only thing I’m going to disagree with is the Black Album comment? Really? You think THAT was his best work? Better than Blueprint? Just the fact that you said that makes me question you lol … Song Cry ALONE beats out Black Album. Period. Not to mention The Takeover, The Ruler’s Back, You Don’t Know, Blueprint, … matter of fact the only song I skip over on Blueprint is the song with R.Kelly. Black Album, while it is a good hip hop album, better than most of the stuff out today, is CRAP compared to Blueprint. Next you’re gonna say Kingdom Come is better than Reasonable Doubt[/quote]
Hmm, typo homes. LOL. Forgot the “S” on “work”. Like I said, those are his best WORKS. Plus, you can actually make a case for B.A being better. 99 problems, Moment of Clarity and What more can I say showed his ability to rhyme and “paint a picture”.
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
That’s the thing about ART, there isn’t really a clear and consice definition of what makes it BETTER than what others are doing.
If you like lyrics, it’s no question that Eminem rules that category. Noone can rhyme like him, some can do it in a single verse here and there, but he’s so consistent with it it’s ridiculous.
I too think Jay-Z is overrated, simply from those people saying he’s the best. I think he’s one of the best, but plenty who are better. But in terms of swagger and just being a general example of the hip-hop lifestyle, Jay does get a lot of credit. As well as the business aspect.
Anyone who brings up beats is just grasping at straws. Jay-Z does not make his own beats (on the flip side, Em does make SOME of his own) and also has the luxury of having most of the greatest producers of all time making beats for him. In fact, I’ll go as far as to say that if it wasn’t for Timbaland, Neptunes, etc., he wouldn’t be as popular, since most of them are the reason his songs move crowds (take note of who made the beats on all his hot singles throughout the years). Speaking of crowds… people who are arguing popularity are also grasping at straws, since most people who listen to music are sheep who will automatically think the next hot thing is the best. Radio stations in DC are on Lil Wayne’s jock hard, I can’t stand it. The dude doesn’t even write his own rhymes, fucking sheep. And all the kids in my area are wearing tight Hollister looking clothes cuz Wayne did it, not even realizing they’re jocking a white-surfer dude style. A bunch of fucking sheep.
Oh and by the way, Renegades was originally a Em and Royce song. Ct. Rockula, I hope you know about this. Em does not say anything about a “jigga joint”, he’s omitting “it’s Royce, he’s the king of Detroit and I’m the sinister…”. And yes, Royce’s verses were also better than Jay’s (not that his were bad, he was just overshadowed by better lyricists) and also, yes, Em made the beat, too. It’s an Eminem song that Jay’s record company gaffled onto the Blueprint (which was also a name he stole from KRS, don’t even get me started on everything Jay steals from other people in the industry, including many, many rhymes). Also the reason why he added another verse to the radio version of Big Pimpin, he was being outshined by UGK.[/quote]
And add tons of BIGGIE lines that he stole and of course the lines from “Success” were bitten from one of Em’s old songs.
But I’m not knocking on Jayz’s legacy. Dude is obviously one of the best in the game. What ticks me off is the whole GOAT thing. Clearly, hes over rated. Eminem at most is UNDER rated cause of his skin color. And NAS… well he just got billed for $44,000/month for Child Support. Fuck Kelis. I hate gold diggers.
Somebody link me a good Nas song. I’ve yet to hear one.
[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
polo77j wrote:
B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
Well, I do only have Blueprint and The Black Album(his best work IMO) so you can probably tell I’m not a huge Jayz fan. But if you look at his body of work, the only thing impressive about him is that he puts out alot of material. But quantity doesn’t always mean quality(look at LL cool J).
And really, if you compare him to NAS, he wouldn’t fare much better than he would if you compared him to EM, LYRICALLY.
And where does this GOAT thing really come from? Because Lyrically, I can name 10 guys who can out rhyme him. On subjects, Tupac, Immortal Technique, Rakim, KRS-ONE and NAS basically talk about the same things that he does. And his flow is by sub par. If you talk about the materials he puts out, again LL cool J tops him and lil wayne is putting out shit more frequently. So, GOAT? I don’t think so. Not even close. He is one of the best though, and I respect jay alot like almost everyone in the game.
Oooo … only thing I’m going to disagree with is the Black Album comment? Really? You think THAT was his best work? Better than Blueprint? Just the fact that you said that makes me question you lol … Song Cry ALONE beats out Black Album. Period. Not to mention The Takeover, The Ruler’s Back, You Don’t Know, Blueprint, … matter of fact the only song I skip over on Blueprint is the song with R.Kelly. Black Album, while it is a good hip hop album, better than most of the stuff out today, is CRAP compared to Blueprint. Next you’re gonna say Kingdom Come is better than Reasonable Doubt
Hmm, typo homes. LOL. Forgot the “S” on “work”. Like I said, those are his best WORKS. Plus, you can actually make a case for B.A being better. 99 problems, Moment of Clarity and What more can I say showed his ability to rhyme and “paint a picture”.[/quote]
Song Cry, Renegade, Blueprint (mama loves me), Heart of the City, U Don’t Know, Girls Girls Girls (pt 2) all shit on those. I’m not trying to say that the songs you used are bad songs, but the songs from Blueprint are by far and away superior in flow, delivery and lyrical content.
If you wanted to argue Reasonable Doubt and Blueprint you could, but B.A. is b.s. compared to Blueprint/RD … it’s still a solid album by any other standard, but it doesn’t hold a candle to Blueprint.
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Um, none of Eminem show “sucked balls”, if you wanted to say a handful of songs in his other albums were bad, it would be open for argument at most. Please don’t start listing no name underground rappers as people who are not overrated. That is getting so old… it’s ok if you like them more, but don’t say people suck because you don’t like them.[/quote]
It’s not that I don’t like him, I just always felt he was overrated. He was basiclly a corporate sponsored rebel. Dr. Dre found this talented white kid with a quirky style and delivery and thought “I’ma get paid!!!” Some of his underground stuff is bananas, but his studio stuff - to me - has for the most part been kinda corny.
[quote]hardgnr wrote:
Somebody link me a good Nas song. I’ve yet to hear one. [/quote]
- YouTube (Technically 9th’s beat)
And if you can’t get into any of these, damn. I feel bad for you.
[quote]hardgnr wrote:
Somebody link me a good Nas song. I’ve yet to hear one. [/quote]
Is this a serious post?
I won’t argue that his underground stuff was better, it was crazy, the rhymes and metaphors, just all crazy. But he reached a point in his third album where he was rhyming every other word and still making it sound like he was talking normal in pretty much every song throughout the entire song. No other rappers I’ve heard can come close to matching that (Tech nine imo comes closest).
He even mentioned it on one of the first songs “you ain’t even impressed no more, you’re used to it, flow’s too wet, nobody close to it, nobody says but still everybody knows the shit” and then in the song with Dre when they went on JD “I joke when I say I’m the best in the booth but a lot of truth is said in jest”