I’ve started eating Salmon from tins instead of taking the pills/liquid. If I buy bulk (when they’re on special), I get the fish fat for much cheaper and I consider the protein to be gravy after that. Each tin contains 14g of fat, and so 2 tins a day is plenty.
Joel I was simply stating a digestion point. IE: When taking large amounts I have found they shoot right through me. Please, don’t get so high and mighty, most your articles suck (and go against what most T_mag writers beleive-ie the notion of cheating on your diet to ramp up the metabolism) and you have the physique of a 12 year old girl.
You will also note that I was sure to note that I also space them out because I use them as my main source of dietary fat.
Hi, El_Machinae, I love salmon. In fact when I was researching high-dose EPA/DHA, I looked into purchasing Alaskan salmon and flying it in. Salmon is higher in omega-3 fatty acids than just about any of the other fishes (except maybe sardines and mackerals, if I remember correctly), but if you’re trying to get 6g of EPA/DHA daily, you’d have to eat a LOT!
When cooked with dry heat, Wild Atlantic salmon provides 2.218 grams of omega-3 fatty acids; EPA (0.411g), DHA (1.429g), and ALA (0.378g), per 100 grams.
When cooked with dry heat, Farmed Atlantic salmon provides 2.26 grams of omega-3 fatty acids; EPA (0.69g), DHA (1.457g), and ALA (0.113 grams), per 100 grams.
When cooked with dry heat, Chinook salmon provides 1.847 grams of omega-3 fatty acids; EPA (1.01g), DHA (0.727g), and ALA (0.11g), per 100 grams.
When cooked with dry heat, Chum salmon provides 0.848 grams of omega-3 fatty acids from EPA (0.299g), DHA (0.505), and ALA (0.044g), per 100 grams.
When cooked with dry heat, Wild Coho salmon provides 1.114 grams of omega-3 fatty acids, derived from EPA (0.401g), DHA (0.658g), and ALA (0.055g), per 100 grams.
When cooked with dry heat, Pink salmon provides 1.332 grams of omega-3 fatty acids, derived from EPA (0.537 grams), DHA (0.751g), and ALA (0.044g), per 100 grams.
When cooked with dry heat, Sockeye salmon provides 1.292 grams of omega-3 fatty acids, derived from EPA (0.53g), DHA (0.7g), and ALA (0.062g), per 100 grams.
Most of my diet being chicken breasts and tuna, I don’t get much fat in my diet. So I find myself at night struggling to get fat intake up to around 35% of my calorie intake. To stop this I started taking some fish capsules with my meals. Is this not such a good idea? Otherwise I’ll be pounding about 2TBS of Flax oil, along with 18 fish capsules right before bed. Would that cause any complications?
One more question, how much strength is there to the statement that by eating some fat, you help your body better burn the body fat you have? If this were true, it seems that it would be better to have some fish capsules with each meal.(If you were eating only lean sources of protein) Sorry, that I don’t have all the technical jargon down, and I’m new to the idea of omega 3’s, but if I could get Tampa-Terry and Joel’s input on this it would be great.
Thanks for the insight. I had never thought of burning the fish oit for energy, and I think I’m switching around the way I take the pills. Thanks guys.
“Joel I was simply stating a digestion point. IE: When taking large amounts I have found they shoot right through me.”
Number 1, I'm interested in knowing how you came to this conclusion. How did you measure how much was absorbed and how much was excreted?
Number 2, can you please explain to me how absorption is better when spreading out the dosage? Thus far, you have simply stated your opinion without backing it up; Heb did a nice job of explaining why absorption is actually better with a large dosage taken before bed, so unless you have something to refute that (i.e. a flaw in his reasoning)...(I'm gonna go w/ one of the forum rules in this weeks reader mail), close thy mouth.
Number 3, I'm guessing you havn't read a whole lot about leptin or done the research that I have regarding the hormone. Berardi and I happen to be having a discussion about this now (I'm assuming he is one of the contributors that you are talking about).
Lastly, sorry you felt the need to personally attack me, but I guess attempting to defame the person who disagrees with you by means of a childish rant is the only thing you can do when you have no real reasoning to support your contentions.
Woaahh, fellas. Lets cool things off a bit, shall we? Can we just dispense with the bullshit and perhaps get back to the discussion of ideas?
I have to say JW, your insult-ridden response to Joel was uncalled for. The guy is just trying to offer his knowledge.
However, I have noticed a definite “flame Joel Marion” trend in several threads, and with all due respect Joel, at times it appears you kind of “ask for it”. I apologize if this offends you, but often your posts come across as extremely condescending (critiquing grammar), or even bordering on arrogant when the debate gets a little heated. While it is noble that you defend your opinions so vehemently, best believe that there are always going to be people who have ideas & beliefs divergent from yours. They may not always be able to back up those ideas with clinical studies, but hey- thats life. Remember, you can only lead the horse to water…
Again, not trying to beat up on you, Joel- just offering my 2 cents. Peace.
W of A D- My apologies if I came acrossed that way. Gotta call you on the grammer thing though; the above and the “forum pet peeve” thread is the only time I even mentioned grammar in the year that I have been posting here. I respect and am willing to learn from anyone’s views; I just have a problem when someone makes a statement and tells me my views are incorrect without adequately explaining it; not asking for a study, but you should be able to explain w/ some sort of theory, reasoning, etc.
Again, my apologies.
Hi, RenegadeDragon. Essential fatty acids – my favorite topic! (grin)
For some odd reason, increasing your intake of EFAs above a certain point INCREASES your metabolism. Even though a tablespoon of EFAs are roughly 135 calories, with the body’s basic needs met, you’ll find it increases your energy levels as well as your metabolism and that it is burned, rather than stored, with a net/realized value of LESS THAN 135 calories.
In answer to your question, I think you could have the best of both worlds. If you follow Berardi’s P+F & P+C food combining, I don’t see why you couldn’t space your flaxseed oil out over the course of the day, any time you eat a protein (without carbohydrate) meal. Some of it may end up being used for energy, but you need to include good fat in your diet anyway, right?
Even though people have differing views on the subject, I think 35% fat is a good number for an athlete, especially if it’s a mixture of EFAs and saturated (the kind you find in meat; i.e., solid at room temperature) fat. Barry Sears recommends upwards of 40%. The higher numbers would work particularly well for professional athletes, marathon runners and the likes. Fat doesn’t make you fat. Too many calories and poor food combining will make you fat.
The reason I like your choice of flaxseed oil is that it’s high in what are called Omega-3s. Omega-3s are highly ANTI-inflammatory, a very GOOD thing for an athelete who works out hard and has to deal with sore muscles. However, you still need to get in some Omega-6s, which are just as necessary – make that vital – for health. My strong recommendation here would be that you alternate buying Udo’s Choice (a blend of 3s and 6s) and straight flaxseed oil.
I agree with what Joel said about taking your fish oil at night (or your EFAs if you don’t take fish oil in particular). They’re liquid gold. Barry Sears has a book out (the Omega Zone) in which he discusses the advantages of high-dose fish oil (specifically the EPA & DHA that’s found in fish oil), how it increases energy levels, cognitive/brain function, mental altertness, endurance, athletic performance (and that in highly trained, elite atheletes). I’ve seen the benefits of high-dose fish oil in elite atheletes personally. I have a friend who is a world-class marathon runner (roughly 5th in the world for his age category). Great biomechanics, but he had an extremely poor diet; he doesn’t like vegetables, eats only rice, pasta and potatoes for carbs and not enough protein. I talked him into making two or three changes in his diet. He now eats protein every meal, takes Surge as a post-workout drink and takes high-dose (6g/day) of fish oil. He is now logging over 140 miles a week and says he feels stronger than he ever has in his whole running career. I think the reason the change was so dramatic was that prior to the changes I recommended, he took in NO - zero – essential fatty acids, no flaxseed, no salmon. In fact the only fats he ate were fried foods (gasp!). The change has been stunning. What you read in a book is great, but to see it real-life, with someone you know, is pretty powerful.
So, repeating, since your diet needs to work for you and since downing all those good fats in one sitting is a bit of a challenge, why don’t you take your flaxseed oil during the day with your protein meals and your fish oil capsules at night, before bed, when they’ll do your brain (and everything else) the most good?
And once again, agreeing with Joel, if you’re looking to reduce insulin spikes, fiber would do a better job. Myself, for that purpose, I like guar gum.
Is the night consumption of EFA’s problematic for anyone?
One of the advantages of EFA’s, as stated several times in this thread, is increased mental alertness. I have found that I have trouble falling asleep on the nights I down a bunch of flax with my before bed meal (typically cottage cheese and eggs). I don’t get the drowsy feeling and retain my alertness level of mid-aftrnoon. I don’t have this problem otherwise. Perhaps I am an anamoly.
Normally, I would blame this on self-fulfilling prophecy. However, I experienced this before I had read about the increased alertness effect.
Thanks TampaTerry. I greatly appreciate your responce to my questions. I actually aim for 35% fat, but often end up a little higher if I don’t force myself to eat carbs. I eat tons of veggies, and don’t have too many carb cravings. Ever since I cut soda out of my eating habits I haven’t had many carbs, and I struggle to force myself through a couple cups of oatmeal after Renegade Workouts. My body also seems to function better on lower carb loads, however I understand to force my body through a renegade style workout with no carbs would most likely end up ‘Goring the Flounder.’
Again, Thanks for all your replies Terry. For at least 6 weeks or so, I'll try taking all the fish oils at night and flax during the day with my meals.
Joel, Heb, TT, all of what you guys have said makes good sense. I also never really considered the possibility of my EFAs just being burned for energy without being absorbed. Have to think on this one for a bit, but I’ll try the one-massive-dose-before-bed style and see what happens.
To WoAD, I understand where you’re coming from. But is it too much to ask to have someone back his/her opinion up, rather than just saying “No, you’re wrong”? I don’t think so.
Finally, to JW: Bud, you sound like you’ve got some experience lifting and you know something about training. But you might be wrong about this particular issue… and then again, you might not. So I would also like to see some reasoning behind your statements, given that you seem to be so positive about them. Care to share?
j77, great thread you started, here!
Regarding taking your EFAs at night with the last meal and having trouble sleeping, it does affect some people that way. Myself, I’ll often eat a tin of tuna and a tablespoon and a half of fish oil before bed. It doesn’t affect my ability to sleep at all. My runner friend and his wife, however, wanted to know if there was a stimulant in the fish oil they were taking and think it’s better than a cup of coffee. Two people, two entirely different effects. I guess EFAs just affect you in that way and energy utlization aside, it may be better to take them in the morning. Though if you wake up in the middle of the night, you might try slipping them in then, kinda like some people like to take a middle-of-the-night protein shake?
To RenegadeDragon, you’re welcome. The higher fat levels won’t hurt (and will definitely help) with the type of training you’re doing.
Some people try to fuel their workouts via glycogen energy pathways, and others from aerobic/fat energy pathways. Stu Littleman wrote a book called Slow Burn. He’s what’s called an ultra marathon runner (someone who will run 600 miles in a week or a thousand in 10-12 days) He’s a passionate advocate of teaching runners to draw on fat reserves for energy instead of glycogen stores. He’s the same guy than ran from San Diego to NYC in something like 56 days. So he definitely walks the talk – or makes that “runs the talk.”
So I guess the point is that our need for carbs is highly individual, and if you’ve found the right amount for your needs and the rest of the macronutrients are right as well, you’ll have everything you need for a kick-ass workout, be it Renegade style or anything else you’d ever want to do.
Congrats, and keep up the hard work!!!
If one were say on a diet that included less than 30grams. of carbs a day. What would be the best way to take the fish oils to prevent them from being burned up? Is there or will they simply be used for energy?
The best way to keep your EFAs and fish oil from being utilized for energy would be to take all of fish oil/EFAs in one meal, at the end of the day, when your metabolism is the slowest and you’re winding down for sleep. That meal would ideally be a P+F meal.
If you’re only getting 30g of carbs a day, what do the rest of your macronutrient numbers look like; i.e., protein & fat grams?
Gosh, I was just re-reading the thread and realized it was you who recommended that EFAs be taken at night, so that they’re not used for energy. I was giving Joel credit for that statement. Forgive me for not giving credit where credit is due.
Excellent logic and great suggestion!
Yes, I was wrong. I still split them up because like I said I use them (Fish oils) as almost all of my dietary fat intake. To Joel several times I have tried taking all the oils at once and seen oil in my toliet 45 min later which indictaes to me a digestion issue. I usually don’t lose my temper however Joel constantly saying rude things in other posts for no reason (IE: “JW use a period”) When not needed have gotten on my nerve. Especially considering the fact that I have been here much longer than Joel and as I have noted before Joel is not physically impressive at all. I do not beleive winning the BFL BS is enough to make Joel an expert. I dis agree with many of his opinions especially when it comes t cheating on ones diet.
I’ve just started the T-Dawg diet and have been spreading my EFA’s and fish oil throughout the day. Would you guys recommend consuming my foods just as they are, without adding any EFA’s/fish oil, and just make up my fat difference with flax and fish oil in my shake before going to bed? For example, instead of adding a teaspoon of fish oil and a tablespoon of flax oil to my morning Grow shake, should I just mix the powder with water and consume those oils right before bed?
Thanks for the props but many, including yourself, gave excellent input and advice on the topic as usual…in fact, this turned into a great thread…and I increased my knowledge of EFA’s also due to all the great input…and that is why I love T-mag and the people who post here.