T Nation

Who Started TRT in the 500s (or FT 1.7-2%)?

Doing my bloodwork for Defy next week. Worked really hard the past year to get from the 400s to 500s. FT only broke 100 on Clomid and when I used to smoke marijuana daily (my E2 was also 47 then). Can’t explain that one.

I won’t make this post all about myself, because this is the subject of post I’ve scoured the internet for, found results, but scattered all over.

Who started in the 500s, or with a FT of around 1.7-2%? Aka the grey area lol.

Please include age too.

Lots of guys walk into T mills with their TT in the 500s and leave with their ass shotup with pellets. They don’t care they just want your money.
Natural T is nothing like injected T. If you have 500 you are fool for going on TRT.
You want to mess around and play with T recreationally fine go to pharma and start reading.

Those percentages are no good, most need to be closer to 3% Free T to feel good and have no symptoms. No surprise Free T was still low on clomid, clomid increased SHBG which was already a problem from the start.

As far as manipulating SHBG, not likely as it’s by far the most difficult to manipulate. Experienced doctors have tried and failed to manipulate their own.

A Total T of 500 would see my Free T at the top or above the reference ranges do to lower SHBG. The Free T optimal range is 20-26 pg/mL.

Numbers suck. Symptom relief is the name of the game. No clue about percentage. I just know what dose I need right now to feel normal.

I was 285 and 3.5 t. That’s 3%… felt deathly. :rofl:

It would of been nice to have 500 if free t was close to 20… but I bet most guys at 500 feel just fine naturally.

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I’ve heard this before, but how would you describe it?

Yea it’s taken Clomid or an AI to break 10 pg/mL in the past.

When I wasn’t taking such good care of myself, I was easily around 9.

I saw one of your old posts about being on Klonopin - I went through this as well for a couple years out of my life. Do you feel it causes long term damage? Curious of your thoughts.

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Injectable testosterone is so close to the real mccoy (bioidentical), the body cannot tell the difference. Structurally both natural and bioidentical testosterone are very close.

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The few times I’ve gone over 2%, I feel pretty good.

Pretty sure it’s taken either Clomid or the one time I tried an injection to get that number.

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Did you every have good T lvls in the 20-30? Then in your 40s-50 try to replace it or hell even double it? Not even close to the same.
Injecting kicks some of your system back in gear like your metabolism will increase and help you lose weight. It will also let you grow a little at the gym but not much. Still uncreasing your exersize and losing weight can have a snowball effect for your over all health.

Some of the down sides to injecting T compared to natural production is no matter how many times you inject a week you can not match your natural circadian rhythm.

When the body detects the injected T the pituitary gland stop all production of LH and FSH the two hormones that trigger your nuts to make sperm and T. This science is not fully understood but many think other systems get shutdown as well. When you hear people trying to backfill pathways this is what they are investigating.

When injecting T the body has a really hard time trying to stablize other hormones, E2 prolactin can get out of control, You blood can thicken to point of being dangerous. Non of this happens with natural T production.

Lastly (Gels 1 year injecting over 4 years) something I’ve noticed is I have lost about half my penile sensitivity and my sperm volume has dropped to about 1/4 of my original load size.

So these boys that are trying to tell you bio identical T is the same as natural production have no clue how this all works. Again like above I will warn you and all reading this. The mods on the forum do not police bad or dangerous advice.

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Bio identical hormones means just that. They are identical and the body sees it as the same. Nobody said that it matches natural producrion cycles or mimicked… 100% Out of context.

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IF it is so bioidentical they why does the pituitary gland detect even the smallest amount and shuts down.

Really … becusse the body has a gauge. It receives a signal to create more when levels are low. If you have more than enough t in the body , then jr never gets the signals to create more. Thus the pituitary gland shuts off.

Surprised you don’t know how this works.

If the body continues to make test then it would support your argumentz

The fact that the body stops production proves that bio identical is close enough to the real thing. It stops producing because it says “we have more than enough / no need to make anything naturally”.

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“Bioidentical” is a marketing line. Most guys (the Bulletproof coffee dufus for instance) use the term to differentiate between injectable and what they were using, because injecting is “using steroids”. Laughably stupid. There is no such thing as “bioidentical”. There is natural, and there is synthetic. Full stop. And synthetic is only trying to mimic natural, it’s like the difference between 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional.

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They throw around the word a ton. I guess the body recognizes it as a true form and thus absorbs it.z

Physiological data and clinical outcomes demonstrate that bioidentical hormones are associated with lower risks, including the risk of breast cancer and cardiovascular disease, and are more efficacious than their synthetic and animal-derived counterparts. Until evidence is found to the contrary, bioidentical hormones remain the preferred method of HRT. Further randomized controlled trials are needed to delineate these differences more clearly.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179815

"Synthetics refer to man-made hormones, as you’d expect — hormones that are made from chemical sources that approximate the hormones the human body makes. "

" What are Natural Forms of HRT? In most discussions of HRT, “natural” refers to estrogens and progesterone that are often man-made, but from natural plant sources. Most of them are naturally occurring and in theory, bio-identical to the hormones your body makes. In other words, they don’t approximate your hormones; they have the same exact chemical structure

Most bio-identical hormones come from natural plant sterols that are derived from soy and/or wild yams. Plants such as soy and wild yam have pre-cursor molecules known as “phyto-hormones” that can be easily converted into bio-identical hormones such as estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, etc. These are taken to a laboratory where they are converted chemically, or semi-synthesized to hormones that are identical and indistinguishable from the body’s own.

What is the difference between bio-identical hormones and synthetic hormones?
From a physiological perspective, bio-identical hormones derived from natural plant sources are identical to those that the body produces for itself, in physiological proportions. When we are “replacing” the body’s hormones, we feel it makes more sense to use entities which the body recognizes as its own, rather than hormones from horses, imbalanced versions or overly potent synthetic versions. Synthetic hormones are chemically altered to be many more times potent than natural, bio-identical hormones.

Do your research … Opinions are like assholes … everyone has one. Including me.

So you are saying that no one walks into a doctor to get injectable testosterone or orders online from shady sources with TT in the 500s … only PELLETS … and your source for that is what???

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I have to interject here. @hrdlvn is arguing a different point than you are. He is saying that ANY amount of exogenous T will shut down the pituitary, whether it is enough or not.

I’d have to say that I think I would side with him on this point. Inject 10mg per week and see how much like shit you feel in 6 weeks. Why doesn’t the pituitary kick in here and try to stimulate the testicles to produce testosterone to make up the difference? Seems like it would if the test was truly bioidentical.

I don’t know that this has ever really been tested, but his point is valid as far as I understand it.

What HAS been tested, is fucked up protocols (like once per month injections) that leaves guys completely crashed after 10 days or so. Why doesn’t the pituitary start back up and have the testicles try to make up the difference then? See what I’m saying?

If exogenous test was truly bioidentical, in the fact that the body couldn’t tell the difference, then nobody would ever need to inject more than a few mg of test just to make up the deficit of what the testicles couldn’t produce right?

That’s why we call this Testosterone Replacement Therapy, not Testosterone Supplement Therapy.

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I think the issue with this line of reasoning is that the population of interest does not produce very much testosterone to start with. If a persons body is at equilibrium at 300 ng/dl, then very small doses will get them to that level, and they will stop producing.

For someone with naturally high levels and cycling, test tapers are used to get the body producing some, and supplementing some while lowering the supplemental dose over time.

Not sure i see your point…

Let’s say a guy went to a Dr. with a TT of 175, and a Free T of 2. If the point that was made is invalid…

Why wouldn’t that guy just be able to supplement enough to get to a “normal” level without shutting down the pituitary?

The implied consequence with your line of thinking is…ANYTHING above what the patient is naturally producing is not “normal” for that patient, so the extra (not normal) test shuts down the pituitary. So that begs to question that if it is truly normal, why does he need TRT in the first place?

You have to tow the line here and be careful with circular reasoning. If the above here is true, then NONE of us are on TRT…we are ALL ABUSING steroids because we are pushing our Test levels above what they should be according to our bodies “natural gauge”.

The point that was previously being made was that, at least according to my understanding (which could always be wrong), even if you injected LESS test than you naturally produce, the pituitary still shuts down FSH and LH over time.

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I’ve always wondered the same - why the pituitary doesn’t just pick up the slack in there.

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