T Nation

Who Started the Current War in Gaza?

According to the Israeli press Israel attacked first…

Thoughts?

It began when Hamas condoned the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli students.

Edited almost immediately.

The murders were in the West Bank and Hamas don’t seem to have had any connection with them.

Who knows? Maybe Israel used the teenage killings as an excuse and opportunity to get to destroy the tunnels before Hamas used them. You could expect their intelligence to have known about their existence. And the tunnels were a much more severe threat than the relatively aimless rockets. But I’m just speculating.

The only thing that I am somewhat certain of is that the current war started long ago, this is just a new round after a calmer period. It’s the he third round in current situation, to be exact.
There are supposedly differences of meaning about strategies between Hamas military and political wings. So far the military wing has owned Gaza.

But the Israelis did not mention the intention to destroy the tunnels until the current war had actually started. As you say these do seem to be a bigger threat to Israel. Surely they would have mentioned them as they started attacking if they had known about them?

I am not discussing the longer history in this thread.

The question is who started the current invasion of Gaza?

And the answer really does look like Israel to me.

[quote]lou21 wrote:
But the Israelis did not mention the intention to destroy the tunnels until the current war had actually started. As you say these do seem to be a bigger threat to Israel. Surely they would have mentioned them as they started attacking if they had known about them?

I am not discussing the longer history in this thread.

The question is who started the current invasion of Gaza?

And the answer really does look like Israel to me.[/quote]

Well duh, there are no Hamas troops on Israels side, with an exception of some meagre attempts. What are you going to do with this information about Israel starting the invasion of Gaza? What does it tell you?
And why would they have mentioned about the tunnels (if they knew about them). I find the effect of “finding” them to be considerably stronger.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:
But the Israelis did not mention the intention to destroy the tunnels until the current war had actually started. As you say these do seem to be a bigger threat to Israel. Surely they would have mentioned them as they started attacking if they had known about them?

I am not discussing the longer history in this thread.

The question is who started the current invasion of Gaza?

And the answer really does look like Israel to me.[/quote]

Well duh, there are no Hamas troops on Israels side, with an exception of some meagre attempts. What are you going to do with this information about Israel starting the invasion of Gaza? What does it tell you?
And why would they have mentioned about the tunnels (if they knew about them). I find the effect of “finding” them to be considerably stronger.[/quote]

In my country this war has been justified as a necessary evil to ensure Israeli safety in the face of rocket attacks.

But the facts don’t stack up. Israel seems to have started it. This fact if it were more widely acknowledged might change some of the public debate.

So why was this war started?

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:
But the Israelis did not mention the intention to destroy the tunnels until the current war had actually started. As you say these do seem to be a bigger threat to Israel. Surely they would have mentioned them as they started attacking if they had known about them?

I am not discussing the longer history in this thread.

The question is who started the current invasion of Gaza?

And the answer really does look like Israel to me.[/quote]

Well duh, there are no Hamas troops on Israels side, with an exception of some meagre attempts. What are you going to do with this information about Israel starting the invasion of Gaza? What does it tell you?
And why would they have mentioned about the tunnels (if they knew about them). I find the effect of “finding” them to be considerably stronger.[/quote]

In my country this war has been justified as a necessary evil to ensure Israeli safety in the face of rocket attacks.

But the facts don’t stack up. Israel seems to have started it. This fact if it were more widely acknowledged might change some of the public debate.

So why was this war started?
[/quote]

Because of total lack of trust, basically. That’s how all wars are started. After that anything can start it, just read commemorative articles of 1st world war. There are plenty of the. But I can’t give an exact answer, only point to the surrounding conditions.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:
But the Israelis did not mention the intention to destroy the tunnels until the current war had actually started. As you say these do seem to be a bigger threat to Israel. Surely they would have mentioned them as they started attacking if they had known about them?

I am not discussing the longer history in this thread.

The question is who started the current invasion of Gaza?

And the answer really does look like Israel to me.[/quote]

Well duh, there are no Hamas troops on Israels side, with an exception of some meagre attempts. What are you going to do with this information about Israel starting the invasion of Gaza? What does it tell you?
And why would they have mentioned about the tunnels (if they knew about them). I find the effect of “finding” them to be considerably stronger.[/quote]

In my country this war has been justified as a necessary evil to ensure Israeli safety in the face of rocket attacks.

But the facts don’t stack up. Israel seems to have started it. This fact if it were more widely acknowledged might change some of the public debate.

So why was this war started?
[/quote]

Because of total lack of trust, basically. That’s how all wars are started. After that anything can start it, just read commemorative articles of 1st world war. There are plenty of the. But I can’t give an exact answer, only point to the surrounding conditions.
[/quote]

Fairly reasonable. Neither side has any reason to trust the other. In fact both sides have a long history of being very untrustworthy.

I would love it if our politicians would either be less poorly informed or stop lying so blatantly to us though.

[quote]lou21 wrote:

I would love it if our politicians would either be less poorly informed or stop lying so blatantly to us though.[/quote]

They aren’t uninformed, and they won’t ever stop lying.

Politics is, quite simply, the phenomena of people being judged and supported on how good the lies coming out of their mouth sound, and total disregard for their actions.

It’s also based on looks. As funny as it sounds, we do a subconscious tally on a person on whether they look “presidential” or not. And in this world of sound bytes, pictures and quantity over quality…we’re suckers for the tall, dark and handsome. When those guys can lie and make us swoon, then it’s all over.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
It began when Hamas condoned the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli students.[/quote]

does Israel know who killed the 3 boys?

It could be that Israel used the 3 boy’s murder as an excuse to go in and mow the grass

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It could be that Israel used the 3 boy’s murder as an excuse to go in and mow the grass [/quote]

I think the boys were a coincidental (albeit tragic) event.

The precipitating factor is 3,000 plus rockets lobbed into Israel since 2012; and continuous tunnel raids that killed, injured and harassed Israeli soldiers and civilians.

Mufasa

[quote]lou21 wrote:
Edited almost immediately.

The murders were in the West Bank and Hamas don’t seem to have had any connection with them.[/quote]

This gives a pretty good time line of the events leading up to the current conflict…and yes, the deaths of the 3 students were involved in the build up…

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It could be that Israel used the 3 boy’s murder as an excuse to go in and mow the grass [/quote]

I think the boys were a coincidental (albeit tragic) event.

The precipitating factor is 3,000 plus rockets lobbed into Israel since 2012; and continuous tunnel raids that killed, injured and harassed Israeli soldiers and civilians.

Mufasa

[/quote]

Did you actually read the article I posted?

Also were there actually any tunnel raids before Israel started attacking Gaza?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
It began when Hamas condoned the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli students.[/quote]

does Israel know who killed the 3 boys?
[/quote]

Not as far as they have stated publically.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:
Edited almost immediately.

The murders were in the West Bank and Hamas don’t seem to have had any connection with them.[/quote]

This gives a pretty good time line of the events leading up to the current conflict…and yes, the deaths of the 3 students were involved in the build up…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers[/quote]

No this article relates to the murder of three Israeli teenagers. Whilst a disgusting crime this took place in the West Bank, we still don’t know who did it and almost certainly did not involve any of the 1500 odd people Israel have killed in Gaza.

Furthermore it did not involve Hamas


http://www.dailydot.com/politics/israel-gaza-kidnap-false-inaccurate/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas

Could Israel’s attack on Gaza have anything at all to do with this?

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
It began when Hamas condoned the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli students.[/quote]

does Israel know who killed the 3 boys?
[/quote]

Not as far as they have stated publically.[/quote]

so it could have been an Israeli that killed them ?