Who Should Be Held Accountable

[quote]Soco wrote:
I am not referring to his actions, I am referring to his statement.

He was clearly trying to dodge any sort of responsibility with a childish “I didn’t know what would happen” response.

I am not actually calling for his impeachment, I was simply mocking how stupid his statement was. If he didn’t know they were going to break, despite all the information available, he is utterly incompetent.

As for this situation overall, I hope it leads to real reform efforts in New Orleans, and long-term changes that lead to better coordination efforts between state and federal agencies. While I do fault homeland security and the Bush administration, there is plenty of blame to spread around. [/quote]

There is a lot of blame to go around. But Bush should not be at the top of that list. I never saw Bush say anything about the levy before it broke, and searching has brought up nothing about Bush saying that. (Although it brought up a lot of hate Bush, and a lot of liberal opinions.) Now I did find that some people are actually claiming the government actually went out and broke those levies on purpose.

With so many people who are actually in charge of this stuff, and how many people are in the chain of command, why jump right to Bush? There is only one reason, and that is political gain, or political hate.

The people who could have left but didn’t, blame them. The fact that neither the mayor, nor governor made transportation available to the people who could not move is another problem. The fact that nobody upgraded the levies, instead funding every thing else, which is a common problem in America, another blame.

Bush’s blame should be below Howard Munson, and I don’t even know who Howard Munson is.

We don’t have a president who’s job it is to do everything. If your mail is lost, he will not be the one looking for it. If you are robbed at gunpoint, he will not be leading the investigation. Exactly the same with this disaster. There is a system that was supposed to be in place, and that failed. And one week later, we do not have all the information available as to where it broke down. I just found out 3 of the water pumps were not working there. Should we blame Bush for that?

This is nothing but a fishing expedition. Another attempt to attach something to Bush to hurt his popularity. Personally I think it is starting to get ridiculous. About as ridiculous as blaming America for causing the Tsunami a while back.

I am with all the people who say dump the politics, and worry about the people. Instead of looking for blame, look to help. Get the chip off your shoulder.

If you look at my original post, I clearly blamed the french first, then the bush administration and homeland security.

As for the rest of this thread, you are making an argument for me that I didn’t make. I said that he shouldn’t have said “I didn’t think the levies would break,” because it is factually inaccurate. All the information avialable said that the levies would most likely break on anything above a category 3 storm.

As I said, there is plenty of blame to spread around. Bush does not however do himself any favors by using such lame excuses.

I blame Katrina. And Mother Nature.

Mother Nature is a bitch.

[quote]Soco wrote:

As for the rest of this thread, you are making an argument for me that I didn’t make. I said that he shouldn’t have said “I didn’t think the levies would break,” because it is factually inaccurate. All the information avialable said that the levies would most likely break on anything above a category 3 storm.
[/quote]

Yes, that’s why we elected Bush, because of his in-depth knowledge of levees & flood control. I’m sure his highest priority in office was studying all the available information on the New Orleans levees. My sewer backed up a few weeks back & that SOB didn’t do a damn thing to help me.

The president’s job is to hire competent people. His hostility toward actually doing this, toward having a powerful government capable of solving real social problems, led to this. Opinion | Killed by Contempt - The New York Times

Once being elected, George Bush appointed his close buddy Joe Allbaugh to head FEMA. ALLBAUGH HAD NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE IN EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT. Allbaugh’s job was to immediately began slashing FEMA’s budget and programs.

Allbaugh was replaced by his college roommate and PRESENT FEMA HEAD MIKE BROWN, WHO ALSO LACKED ANY EXPERIENCE IN EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT. In fact, Mike Brown’s prior job experience was in holding international horse shows.

That’s right. People died in N.O., quite possibly in part, because Bush put a guy with experience in shiny-brushing steeds and shoveling horseshit in charge of saving people’s lives during an emergency - because he was his buddy’s college roommate?

Call me crazy, but the “tax cuts” we have all received since 2000 were not worth the cost of GW cutting the nuts off FEMA and any number of other agencies, and thereby leaving people to drown, starve, murder, loot, rape and pillage down there in the wake of a Class 4 hurricane.

Maybe you can tell - I live in DC, I formerly worked for an agency, the people who work there should be respected by the President and permitted to do their jobs, and if the president respected these agencies and permitted them to actually function the way they are supposed to, this could have been avoided. Putting a horseshit shoveler in charge of any other than horseshit shoveling is to say the least, probably not good management.

reddog6376 wrote:
Soco wrote:

As for the rest of this thread, you are making an argument for me that I didn’t make. I said that he shouldn’t have said “I didn’t think the levies would break,” because it is factually inaccurate. All the information avialable said that the levies would most likely break on anything above a category 3 storm.

Yes, that’s why we elected Bush, because of his in-depth knowledge of levees & flood control. I’m sure his highest priority in office was studying all the available information on the New Orleans levees. My sewer backed up a few weeks back & that SOB didn’t do a damn thing to help me. [/quote]

I blame steroids.

C’mon, why do we have to pin blame on every bad thing that happens? What good will it do? It was a terrible natural disaster that created a terrible situation. I am sure you could look at it from any perspecitve and be able to place blame on someone.

Im seriously blaming the conflict in Iraq for this… i read in the newspaper that NO got far less than what was needed on an upgrade for the levees. Iraq is the biggest leach i have ever seen as far as milatary manpower and more importantly fundage. I can gaurantee, that the levees will never agaain not get the funding that they need

The levees have been a potential problem for years before Bush was elected.

You can’t blame Bush or the war for this. Actually you can blame them, but you would be wrong.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The levees have been a potential problem for years before Bush was elected.

You can’t blame Bush or the war for this. Actually you can blame them, but you would be wrong.[/quote]

So, your logic is, since it was a problem before he became president, then it is not his fault if something goes wrong when he is president? That’s retarded logic. I think this is the one time where the loss of life overtakes this nonsense as far as trying to blame every president before Bush…but Bush.

[quote]RAMMO wrote:
Something or other
[/quote]

Bush hating Krugman? Blame everything on Bush Krugman? I wouldn?t wipe my ass with Krugman?s article.

Now you say FEMA had their budget cut. Ok, by how much? What was their budget in the preceding years?

Apparently the fact that homeland security has actually increased the budget in 2002 means nothing.

http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2002/0204/web-fema-02-07-02.asp

You will note this is not an opinion piece where people can say whatever they want.

Anyway I know there are opinion pieces out there that talk about budget cuts, which often turn out to be a reduction in increases. Instead of getting an increase of 10 billion they only get 9, so then it is claimed Bush cut 1 billion even thought there was in increase of 9 billion. (These are example numbers.)

Anyway one of the opinion articles I found mentioned FEMA practiced last year for possible floods in New Orleans, and what was cut was some flood map that wasn?t even supposed to be done by now.

As far as the guy in charge, maybe he does deserve blame, and maybe not. We will find out later.

But until all the facts are out lets not turn this into some witch hunt.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The levees have been a potential problem for years before Bush was elected.

You can’t blame Bush or the war for this. Actually you can blame them, but you would be wrong.

So, your logic is, since it was a problem before he became president, then it is not his fault if something goes wrong when he is president? That’s retarded logic. I think this is the one time where the loss of life overtakes this nonsense as far as trying to blame every president before Bush…but Bush.[/quote]

I blame no president before Bush. I am just pointing out that every president has had an opportunity to fix the levees.

To single out Bush is pure political bullshit.

Give the responsibility to all presidents, LA congressmen, LA governors, NO mayors and all other elected officials in the area.

BTW, someone else posted that Bush cut FEMAs budget. I don’t think this is the case. I think he slowed the astronomical growth of FEMAs budget, but we are actually spending more money on FEMA than we ever did before.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

Yes, that’s why we elected Bush, because of his in-depth knowledge of levees & flood control. I’m sure his highest priority in office was studying all the available information on the New Orleans levees. My sewer backed up a few weeks back & that SOB didn’t do a damn thing to help me. [/quote]

Delegation of authority is one of the duties of a leader. He needs to delegate tasks that he cannot personally do to competent people. If he is incapable of doing that, then he is not a good leader. I am not asking him to get a degree in civil engineering, I am asking him to make a judgement off of available information. That is what a leader does.

Bush made an indefensible statement, and everyone knows it. The only way to continue to argue with me about it is to manipulate what I said into an entirely different debate.

I’ll blame everyone involved that failed at their duties.

Anyone who pushed to cut funding for the work on the NO levees as far back as 2003 gets put on the list.

FEMA gets put on the list for not running with the plan that was put into affect late last year to deal with disasters such as this one.

And anyone that wasn’t working towards doing anything they could to avoid this disaster starting 3 days BEFORE the hurricane hit and when the NO mayor said GTF out of town gets put on the list.

Personally, there needs to be serious questions asked about why FEMA didn’t start doing something as soon as the NO mayor said to evacuate 3 days before the hurricane hit.

Responding to a disaster such as that was planned for and is FEMA’s responsibility. Why they didn’t do their job properly should be the first question that gets asked in any investigation, IMO.

I think its simple.

#1 people were told to leave therefore they knew it was coming.

#2 if i was in that area and had 50$ to my name, and was told a storm was coming, I think I would choose life over death and walk or find a way to get as far as possible from where I was no matter how poor i was.

#3 the elderly and children would require some help, though it should be the responsibility of relatives and family to help them as best as possible and after that is where all the others come into play.

#4 the storm hit and ppl died. could not be prevented, no matter who the president was. The fix up and repair of the current situation is for the local, and all the other govenments to send aid as well as through contributions. The gov’t isnt your babysitter, but they must work on fixing up the current situation. Any other political talk is retarded, it seems so easy to blame natural disaster procedures on a gov’t, when in fact it is the publics responsibility. When you hate someone it seems very easy to blame everything and anything on them.

[quote]mike08042 wrote:
I think its simple.

#1 people were told to leave therefore they knew it was coming.

#2 if i was in that area and had 50$ to my name, and was told a storm was coming, I think I would choose life over death and walk or find a way to get as far as possible from where I was no matter how poor i was.

#3 the elderly and children would require some help, though it should be the responsibility of relatives and family to help them as best as possible and after that is where all the others come into play.[/quote]

Are you saying people have some sort of obligation to think about their safety and that of their families? That people who live in a flood zone below sea level should have an escape plan in case a hurricane is coming?

Why, you elitist Canadian, you! Preaching personal responsibility! For shame!

[quote]Soco wrote:

Delegation of authority is one of the duties of a leader. He needs to delegate tasks that he cannot personally do to competent people. If he is incapable of doing that, then he is not a good leader. I am not asking him to get a degree in civil engineering, I am asking him to make a judgement off of available information. That is what a leader does.

Bush made an indefensible statement, and everyone knows it. The only way to continue to argue with me about it is to manipulate what I said into an entirely different debate.

[/quote]
New Orleans has been below sea level since the city was formed. Every NO mayor & LA governor for the last 200+ years has been aware of that fact. None of them did an adequate job of protecting the city. The current mayor & gov. didn’t bother to implement & follow their own hurricane disaster plan. To try & blame any of this on Bush is nothing more than partisan bullshit. IMO the federal gov’t (which probably has little to do with Bush) is doing an outstanding job of cleaning up the cluster fuck that LA & NO officials have created with thier malfesence.

[quote]futuredave wrote:
Are you saying people have some sort of obligation to think about their safety and that of their families? That people who live in a flood zone below sea level should have an escape plan in case a hurricane is coming?

Why, you elitist Canadian, you! Preaching personal responsibility! For shame! [/quote]

What is going on here? First WMD authors a post that I agree with, now futuredave has me nodding my head as well.

I’m gonna go lay down for a while.

yes, indeed it is a big shame that people should think about evacuating themselves.

Excuses are for losers, solutions are for winners.

Okay, but lets get serious… not everybody has $50 to their name.

Even with $50, do you seriously think there are enough taxis, buses and trains to carry all the people that don’t own their own cars?

Do you really think any car rental places had any cars left?

It’s really easy to blame everyone for being too poor and stupid, but at the same time, you try walking your family out of a disaster area that size with no money in your wallet.

Have you not heard the stories of people who stood around for hours trying to hitch a ride, but nobody would stop for them?

Whether or not people should or shouldn’t have stayed is realy not the issue here. Is the job of the government to look after the welfare of its own citizens?

That is what everyone is arguing after 9/11, to the point that foreign countries can be invaded preemptively if necessary – all in the name of protection.

Perhaps a good disaster response capability, whether to natural disasters or to manmade or terrorist created disasters would also be a good method of protecting the public from harm?

[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
Nobody can be held accountable for Katrina, obviously. However, the damage she caused could’ve been significantly minimized, and the balme for not preparing for this pending disaster - a disaster that was known to be inevitable for decades - lies with these groups:

The Federal Government:

  • for not protecting the marshland under their control in LA and MS, and allowing it to be drained and used by developers.

  • for building concrete irrigation channels upstream and consequently deteriorating the silt foundation of NO that would otherwise be replenished through annual flooding of the Mississippi river.

  • for being slow and overly frugal instead of practical about upgrading the levies in southern LA to protect against category 4 and 5 hurricanes.

The LA, MS and AL govts.

  • for not protecting the barrier islands and marshlands under their control, allowing developers to destroy this natural barrier to storm surges.

  • for being corrupt and doing little to improve the educational system in their states, allowing for higher crime and gang activity, which culminated into the increased raping, looting and all-around mayhem after the storm.

The American People:

  • for being complacent and not being more aware of issues in their nation, state and local juristiction. [/quote]

You left out the rest of the world for standing around for decades and not developing anti-hurricane fans in the atmosphere and God for creating natural disasters to begin with. Blaming the American People? Come on. I have enough to do in my life than to keep up with prevention of all types of disasters and public issues. I don’t get enough sleep as it is.

DB