Who Made God?

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:

If God did not create everything then what/who did?[/quote]

Why does there necessarily have to be someone or something that created “everything”? The notion of linearly flowing time with the act of creation at the beginning is a construct of the human mind, not an absolute that is beyond question.

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.
[/quote]

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap!

[quote]ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap![/quote]

How is morality not subjective?

To Al Q’eada September 11th was highly moral but to most of the world it was an abhorrent act of terrorism. Two conflicting opinions on the morality of the same act.

Ergo, morality is subjective. If you disagree, substantiate your argument and back up your words.

PS Don’t make assumptions about my attitudes towards political correctness or my politics in general…

Ahhh… The distant sound of tumbleweeds…

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I am off to worship the One True and Living God since it is the Lord’s Day today…[/quote]

I thought “the Lord’s day” was from sun down on Friday to sundown on Saturday. That’s the Sabbath as described in the 10 commandments.

And I’m pretty sure that man made god. All of them.

[quote]You have a limited view of the bible and a relationship with God. I seem to remember you saying somewhere that you have never read the bible. Why is it so hard to believe in a God or Creator? If God did not create everything then what/who did? I believe that God has always existed (Genesis). I?m sure a lot of Theists are curious how and why. I know that I am. A better place to start is with whom. The Bible is the key to who God is. Try starting there and maybe you will find the answers that you are looking for.

Me Solomon Grundy

Why did things have to start? if things had to start somewhere then who created god? its a redundant circle leading to the fact that matter has always been meanign there is no need for a single deity…thats just my opinion.

[/quote]

I am arguing for a The Creator (God), which by definition has no beginning or end. There is no circular logic to this. Matter or antimatter would need to have been created. The Laws of the universe would have to be put into effect by someone or something.

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Why did things have to start? if things had to start somewhere then who created god? its a redundant circle leading to the fact that matter has always been meanign there is no need for a single deity…thats just my opinion.

I am arguing for a The Creator (God), which by definition has no beginning or end. There is no circular logic to this. Matter or antimatter would need to have been created. The Laws of the universe would have to be put into effect by someone or something.

Me Solomon Grundy

[/quote]

But just because we don’t know the answer yet, the answer isn’t necessarily ‘God made it’, is it?

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
semper_fi wrote:

You have a limited view of the bible and a relationship with God. I seem to remember you saying somewhere that you have never read the bible. Why is it so hard to believe in a God or Creator? If God did not create everything then what/who did? I believe that God has always existed (Genesis). I?m sure a lot of Theists are curious how and why. I know that I am. A better place to start is with whom. The Bible is the key to who God is. Try starting there and maybe you will find the answers that you are looking for.

Me Solomon Grundy

[/quote]

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Why did things have to start? if things had to start somewhere then who created god? its a redundant circle leading to the fact that matter has always been meanign there is no need for a single deity…thats just my opinion.

I am arguing for a The Creator (God), which by definition has no beginning or end. There is no circular logic to this. Matter or antimatter would need to have been created. The Laws of the universe would have to be put into effect by someone or something.

Me Solomon Grundy

But just because we don’t know the answer yet, the answer isn’t necessarily ‘God made it’, is it? [/quote]

I am not trying to use that as definitive proof of who I believe God to be and that he created everything. I am simply saying that the concept of Intelligent Design is a more reasonable/rational solution than saying that matter has always existed. If God is proven to exist then there no need for faith.

Proof of God will not be like a pregnancy test (+) there is a God (-) there is not a God. I can’t wait to see that last statement come back to haunt me.

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap!

How is morality not subjective?

To Al Q’eada September 11th was highly moral but to most of the world it was an abhorrent act of terrorism. Two conflicting opinions on the morality of the same act.

Ergo, morality is subjective. If you disagree, substantiate your argument and back up your words.

PS Don’t make assumptions about my attitudes towards political correctness or my politics in general…
[/quote]

I agree morality is subjective.
isnt that what this whole debate, that has taken up several threads, is about. Everybody has a different set of morals and values.
another example:

some think abortion is wrong, others feel its necessary…uhh ohhh her come the statistics
ohhh and dont place me into a category either… right, left, up, down…I use my brain to come to conclusions not a political party

[quote]electric_eales wrote:

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god
[/quote]

How do you figure? I explained one concept that I happen to believe is a possibility. Time doesn’t even exist in black holes so how can you claim that an entity that created this universe must adhere to the rules of time as far as needing a beginning and an end?

[quote]cram2012 wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap!

How is morality not subjective?

To Al Q’eada September 11th was highly moral but to most of the world it was an abhorrent act of terrorism. Two conflicting opinions on the morality of the same act.

Ergo, morality is subjective. If you disagree, substantiate your argument and back up your words.

PS Don’t make assumptions about my attitudes towards political correctness or my politics in general…

I agree morality is subjective.
isnt that what this whole debate, that has taken up several threads, is about. Everybody has a different set of morals and values.
another example:

some think abortion is wrong, others feel its necessary…uhh ohhh her come the statistics
ohhh and dont place me into a category either… right, left, up, down…I use my brain to come to conclusions not a political party
[/quote]

Spot on.

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:

I am not trying to use that as definitive proof of who I believe God to be and that he created everything. I am simply saying that the concept of Intelligent Design is a more reasonable/rational solution than saying that matter has always existed. If God is proven to exist then there no need for faith.

Proof of God will not be like a pregnancy test (+) there is a God (-) there is not a God. I can’t wait to see that last statement come back to haunt me.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

Fair enough, but to the minds of all non-believers, the idea that God wouldn’t just make his presence known to all so we all KNEW rather than believed is bizarre. If he did that there would be no arguments and the vast majority of the population of the planet would just fall into line with His plan.

THAT is why there is such a burden of proof issue. It seems so strange that God would want to tease people in this way, like He has nothing better to do.

We’ve gone through history attributing that which we didn’t know about to God, until we discovered the REAL reason behind such things. I’m sure the creation of the universe is another such thing.

BTW - It’s nice to have proper ‘non-flamey’ conversations on subjects like this which I appreciate are very close to people’s hearts.

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap!

How is morality not subjective?

To Al Q’eada September 11th was highly moral but to most of the world it was an abhorrent act of terrorism. Two conflicting opinions on the morality of the same act.

Ergo, morality is subjective. If you disagree, substantiate your argument and back up your words.

PS Don’t make assumptions about my attitudes towards political correctness or my politics in general…
[/quote]

You mean you don’t want me to post: “Wow another English politically correct atheist?”

Okay…fair enough.

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:

I am not trying to use that as definitive proof of who I believe God to be and that he created everything. I am simply saying that the concept of Intelligent Design is a more reasonable/rational solution than saying that matter has always existed. If God is proven to exist then there no need for faith.

Proof of God will not be like a pregnancy test (+) there is a God (-) there is not a God. I can’t wait to see that last statement come back to haunt me.

Me Solomon Grundy

Fair enough, but to the minds of all non-believers, the idea that God wouldn’t just make his presence known to all so we all KNEW rather than believed is bizarre.[/quote]

He did that. We now live in the age of faith.

Wrong, he did that and everyone did not “fall in line.”

Don’t make me quote scripture. You will just reject it (the Bible is hogwash written by men Zeb you freaking idiot). And then we will have a very long debate where neither of us will give up one inch. Oh…and people get sick of us going back and forth…Yada…yada…yada…

He’s not teasing anyone. We currently live in the age of faith, post Christ’s great sacrifice (which you totally reject…I know).

You’re sure? Yikes!

But will you stay that way?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap!

How is morality not subjective?

To Al Q’eada September 11th was highly moral but to most of the world it was an abhorrent act of terrorism. Two conflicting opinions on the morality of the same act.

Ergo, morality is subjective. If you disagree, substantiate your argument and back up your words.

PS Don’t make assumptions about my attitudes towards political correctness or my politics in general…

You mean you don’t want me to post: “Wow another English politically correct atheist?”

Okay…fair enough.[/quote]

Explain how the assertion that morality is subjective is either politically correct OR politically to the left, and I shall award you a big gold star.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Fair enough, but to the minds of all non-believers, the idea that God wouldn’t just make his presence known to all so we all KNEW rather than believed is bizarre.

He did that. We now live in the age of faith.

If he did that there would be no arguments and the vast majority of the population of the planet would just fall into line with His plan.

Wrong, he did that and everyone did not “fall in line.”

Don’t make me quote scripture. You will just reject it (the Bible is hogwash written by men Zeb you freaking idiot). And then we will have a very long debate where neither of us will give up one inch. Oh…and people get sick of us going back and forth…Yada…yada…yada…

THAT is why there is such a burden of proof issue. It seems so strange that God would want to tease people in this way, like He has nothing better to do.

He’s not teasing anyone. We currently live in the age of faith, post Christ’s great sacrifice (which you totally reject…I know).
[/quote]

What is an Age of Faith? If anything I would say we live in an age of cynicism rather than faith but I digress…

I think you’ll find that even I know that the vast majority of people did not believe Jesus to be who he claimed to be at the time he was around. So if not then, exactly when was it He revealed Himself to all so there couldn’t be any doubt? Not picking a fight. Just asking a genuine question.

Re Christ’s great sacrifice. Strange… Something that no-one seems willing to lay out the mechanics of with regards to how his death saved peoples souls, and you accuse me of totally rejecting it. I’ve already stated that I don’t understand it and still no-one is willing to ‘enlighten’ me. Interesting…

And you’re right. Don’t quote scripture at me. Explain yourself using your own words. Tell this stuff as you understand it, not as you read it. Anyone can cut and paste or regurgitate something they’ve read. That’s how I learnt the Periodic Table. Doesn’t make me a chemist though.

Yikes? Are you disputing the point, or doing an old-school style Batman impression? Kapowww!

Depends on much you want to provoke someone that has so far not made any personal digs at you whatsoever.

It seems that is certainly what you are after, more than any actual dialogue regarding the issues discussed. Hey, why don’t you prove me wrong? As always it has been lovely speaking to you.

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
I am simply saying that the concept of Intelligent Design is a more reasonable/rational solution than saying that matter has always existed. [/quote]

Just as a clarification, the Big Bang theory does not say “matter has always existed”.

Furthermore, since Einstein we know that matter + antimatter and energy are basically interchangeable.

Most current theories basically point to ENERGY being the sole entity just before the Big-Bang – and immediately after the Big-Bang, the only reason that everything didn’t go back to being energy (through matter-antimatter annihilation) is because of these tiny little heroes called neutrinos who, due to its lack of charge and small mass, didn’t attract and hence didn’t collide with their anti-particles (and annihilate each other), allowing the current prevalence of matter over anti-matter.

Many theories also point out that eventually the Universe will collapse again (even if it’s expanding right now), and later blow up again, so we might have been stuck in a Big-Bang/Expand/Contract/Collapse/Big-Bang cycle for eternity.

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
If God is proven to exist then there no need for faith. [/quote]

Absolutely.

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Morality is subjective.

Out of all of the hogwash that comes from the politically correct left, this line is the biggest crock of crap!

How is morality not subjective?

To Al Q’eada September 11th was highly moral but to most of the world it was an abhorrent act of terrorism. Two conflicting opinions on the morality of the same act.

Ergo, morality is subjective. If you disagree, substantiate your argument and back up your words.

PS Don’t make assumptions about my attitudes towards political correctness or my politics in general…

You mean you don’t want me to post: “Wow another English politically correct atheist?”

Okay…fair enough.

Explain how the assertion that morality is subjective is either politically correct OR politally to the left, and I shall award you a big gold star.
[/quote]

You will never award me a big gold star. Nor will you ever give me credit for any point that I post.

Message boards don’t work that way, at least not around here.

But I will tell you this:

More people have moved away from God (over the past several years) and the Christian Bible as the cornerstone of what is right and wrong. And when we move away from such an “anchor” each person begins to think that they (deep inside their little brains) have the real answer to what is right and wrong.

It goes something like this:

"I’m and independent thinker…I make my OWN decsions…Bible? GRRRR…(bristle bristle). Big important thinking men like me don’t need that outdated document. I can decide what’s right and wrong independently…I read and am very very educated…And I like philosophy.

Okay, it may not go exactly like that with everyone…

Why is it politically correct?

That’s an easy one: The politically correct do not want anyone to be offended. That’s really the essence of political correctness.

I could post sites…But what’s the point right?

“Let everyone do whatever they want and above all DO NOT offend anyone.”

Christianity is basically an offensive religion (yea I said it and I’m glad I did? :slight_smile:

Why?

I think you know why.

And the politically correct don’t like Christianity one bit because it is so very offensive.

“There are many ways to heaven just be nice and smile to everyone and agree with everyone and…well above all DO NOT OFFEND ANYONE!..Oops did I already say that? Well it’s important.”

Hence, the continuation of “moral relativism.”

Whey the “left?”

That’s even easier.

Take a look at who voted for Bush in the last Presidential election and who voted for Kerry.

I don’t have the figures in front of me but it broke down to regular church attendees voting for Bush.

Kerry’s big block: Non church goers.

“moral relativism” IS NOT born of the right.

Okay…please write back soon. Or, don’t write back. You won’t change my mind and I won’t change your’s.

And anyone who visits this thread has probably already made up their mind as well and will not be influenced by a couple of guys like us who apparently have plenty of time on their hands.

Perhaps that would be a better topic: Why do we have so much time on our hands?

lol

:slight_smile:

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Fair enough, but to the minds of all non-believers, the idea that God wouldn’t just make his presence known to all so we all KNEW rather than believed is bizarre.

He did that. We now live in the age of faith.

If he did that there would be no arguments and the vast majority of the population of the planet would just fall into line with His plan.

Wrong, he did that and everyone did not “fall in line.”

Don’t make me quote scripture. You will just reject it (the Bible is hogwash written by men Zeb you freaking idiot). And then we will have a very long debate where neither of us will give up one inch. Oh…and people get sick of us going back and forth…Yada…yada…yada…

THAT is why there is such a burden of proof issue. It seems so strange that God would want to tease people in this way, like He has nothing better to do.

He’s not teasing anyone. We currently live in the age of faith, post Christ’s great sacrifice (which you totally reject…I know).

What is an Age of Faith? If anything I would say we live in an age of cynicism rather than faith but I digress…[/quote]

You know, I should have said: We are SUPPOSE to be living in an age of faith since Christs sacrifice on the cross.

He lived, walked the earth as a man and died for us. We are now supposed to hold onto to that until his return. Those who have faith (in this) will be rewarded. Those who do not…Um, won’t be.

(See how nice I said that?)

I think it was explained to you on this thread. But I confess I have not read all of the posts.

God gave his one and only son as a sacrifice for sin.

Those who accept this great gift will have eternal life. Those who reject it…um… won’t.

(I’m still being nice)

Why did this have to happen the way it did?

If you are familiar with the Old Testament and blood sacrifice you will understand. If you are not please read it and then get back to me with any questions.

(As if I can answer them…LOL)

Boy…that’s for sure.

And reading the Bible (Several times) does not make me a Bible expert. But around here you almost have to be. Ha ha.

Seriously though, how can anyone get into any sort of Biblical discussion without quoting from the Bible?

Can you discuss “War And Peace” without at least some quotes here and there?

I’m surprised at your confidence based upon almost nothing. And YOU think I have blind faith?

LOL

Atheists have plenty of faith. And that faith is in NOTHING!

[quote]BTW - It’s nice to have proper ‘non-flamey’ conversations on subjects like this which I appreciate are very close to people’s hearts.

But will you stay that way?

Depends on much you want to provoke someone that has so far not made any personal digs at you whatsoever.[/quote]

Just about every single atheist that I have ever seen debate on this forum eventually uses ridicule. I could name them all but they would only post again calling me names…Ha ha.

And “provoking” is easy. All I have to do is maintain my position of being a Christian and quote maybe a tiny bit of scripture. But of course many times you don’t even have to go that far.

I think the atheists have a handbook which states that if you don’t make fun of at least one Christian per week/month you lose your union card.

:slight_smile:

No, I’m not after that. I’ve just been around here long enough to know that that is the usual course. But it does not have to be that way.

[quote]Hey, why don’t you prove me wrong? As always it has been lovely speaking to you.
[/quote]

Prove me wrong and be the first atheist that I can think of that has actually not made fun of the Christian that they were debating.

And you may not have to anyway as there are plenty lurking that will be glad to do the job for you.

In the age of political correctness one must never ridicule any class of people except Christians!