[quote]lucasa wrote:
First, whether you want them to or not, they do. ‘Don’t kill’, ‘don’t lie’, ‘don’t steal’, etc. all sculpt society and keep the wheels generally turning.
[/quote]
I don’t mind values based on fairy tale beliefs, as long as those values are common to all ethical systems, and demonstrably benefit society. Not that I think fairy tales are necessary to hold such values, but at least they don’t cause harm.
My issue is with values based on fairy tale beliefs, which are divisive and damaging. People have used their Christian beliefs, for example, to discriminate against minorites, women, and gays. When these beliefs aren’t grounded in objective reality, the values derived from those beliefs lose credibility.
If you guys are really interested in this topic, there are some very good books of apologetics out there: among many others, there’s Chesterton, Lewis, John Henry Newman, etc.
And more recently, Kreeft, or N.T. Wright on the resurrection, etc…
A very good and recent overview of apologetics is William Craig Lane’s REASONABLE FAITH.
If you approach these books seriously and critically, I think you will find that most of the above criticisms of the Christian faith are naive and silly. Sorry to sound harsh, but it’s true. Too many posters here are just lazily repeating absolute nonsense.
[quote]suruppak wrote:
CB:
“Why would you not expect a paper trail? The Romans kept extremely complete documentation and we have a paper trail for a number of people who would have been contemparary.”
Yes, and I am sure that there are plenty of people who existed and were executed with no Roman paper trail.
I’m a computer programmer, and there is supposed to be documentation for each and every program in existence. We have tons of technology to help make this so. I estimate about 60% of the programs are actually in the docs.
So, my point was that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in the case of 2000 year old paper trails.
Lifticvs wrote:
"It means that maybe such beliefs should not control the center of one’s world view. "
I agree, but I thought we were discussing more the historical Jesus rather than the existence of the god. Anyone who believes in Jesus as the son of god is going to believe he existed whether there is evidence or not!
[/quote]
Lack of evidence is not proof that he didn’t exists I agree with you.
The point is though that coupled with the fact that there is literally zero evidence that he existed, we also have, in the stories written about him, huge gaping problems and inconsistencies.
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.
It means that maybe such beliefs should not control the center of one’s world view.
First, whether you want them to or not, they do. ‘Don’t kill’, ‘don’t lie’, ‘don’t steal’, etc. all sculpt society and keep the wheels generally turning.[/quote]
Fuck off. You’d better not be trying to suggest that the Ten Commandments are the root of our morality. The only three that even matter are the ones you listed, and even lying serves a purpose.
[quote]pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.[/quote]
OK by that mark the days of the week are named after:
The Sun
The Moon
Tiu - Anglo Saxon God of War
Woden - The chief Norse God
Frigg - The Norse God of Love and Fertility
Saturn - The Roman God of Agriculture
Most of our month names come from Roman Gods.
Easter comes from Ostara the Pagan fertility god and was a festival during springtime celebrating renewal and rebirth (coincidence anyone?) Ostara was developed from Astarte, the Phoenician name for the Egyptian fertility god taking things full circle as most of Christianity and a lot of Judaism was ripped off from Egyptian religions.
Our calander was far more shaped by pre-Christian religions than by Christianity. Christianity has just co-opted whatever the local customs were.
[quote]pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.[/quote]
You do realize that the calendar we all use is extensively based on a whole pantheon of gods, right?
January: Named after Janus, the God of doors and gates
March: Named after Mars, the God of war
May: Named after Maia, the Goddess of growth of plants
June: from Junius, Latin for the goddess Juno
Tuesday: Named for the day of Tiw, or Tiu, a Teutonic (Anglo-Saxon) deity
Wednesday: The day of Woden is named for the chief Norse God
Thursday: The day of Thor is named for the Norse God
Friday: The Norse goddess Frigg, or Frigga, names that day
Saturday: Translated from the Latin dies Saturni, or the day of Saturn. In Roman mythology, Saturn was the planetary God of agriculture.
The Bible puts the life and death of Jesus occurring during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. Nero slaughtered thousands of Christians during his reign and did everything he could do destory anything or anybody Judeo-Christian related.
This being the case, what motivation would four men (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) have to write accounts of his life (at different points in their respective lives) that were so similar? The very act of doing so was a death sentence. To not believe he is the son of God is one thing, to not believe he ever existed seems a little silly to me.
I think there probably was a historical Jesus, but to answer your question, aren’t you assuming without evidence that the four books were in fact written by four men named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Given that we have no records of these men outside the books written in their names, and that these writings do not appear until many years after they were supposed to have lived, isn’t it possible that their historicity is as questionable as the historicity of the Jesus they supposedly wrote about?
Regardless of authorship, four different scribes, rabbis, or whoever all wrote about the same guy at different times with slightly different stories. What are the chances of that happening to a guy that never even existed?
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.
You do realize that the calendar we all use is extensively based on a whole pantheon of gods, right?
January: Named after Janus, the God of doors and gates
March: Named after Mars, the God of war
May: Named after Maia, the Goddess of growth of plants
June: from Junius, Latin for the goddess Juno
Tuesday: Named for the day of Tiw, or Tiu, a Teutonic (Anglo-Saxon) deity
Wednesday: The day of Woden is named for the chief Norse God
Thursday: The day of Thor is named for the Norse God
Friday: The Norse goddess Frigg, or Frigga, names that day
Saturday: Translated from the Latin dies Saturni, or the day of Saturn. In Roman mythology, Saturn was the planetary God of agriculture.
I don’t mind values based on fairy tale beliefs, as long as those values are common to all ethical systems, and demonstrably benefit society. Not that I think fairy tales are necessary to hold such values, but at least they don’t cause harm.
My issue is with values based on fairy tale beliefs, which are divisive and damaging. People have used their Christian beliefs, for example, to discriminate against minorites, women, and gays. When these beliefs aren’t grounded in objective reality, the values derived from those beliefs lose credibility.[/quote]
Not just their Christian beliefs. I’m pretty sure there are no homosexuals in Iran for the same reason there are no Jews and I’m pretty sure the women in Mecca don’t dress up to please the pastors driving by on the bypass.
I think the formal (legal) social sanctification of values should require a demonstrable benefit to society. I have no problem with values (religious, fairytale, or otherwise) that don’t exactly benefit society not being formally recognized or sanctified being practiced within a society. Similarly, I don’t think discriminatory beliefs (religious, fairytale, or otherwise) are inherently wrong, especially if the damage they cause marginal to non-existent to the individual and/or society. Xenu strangles your thetan and commands you not to hire black people to model sunscreen (or just not to hire black people and your job is to find sunscreen models), I don’t really have a problem with that. A burning bush tells you to sacrifice your first born son? Yeah, that’s a problem.
There is no way to prove or disprove any of these ancient people lived. Prove Aristotle live, prove Pythagoras lived, prove Julius Caesar lived, prove Khufu lived, prove Cleopatra lived…You can’t when you break it down, all you have is second hand information based on second hand sources which puts us at a minimum f 4 degrees of separation from actually being able to know. So if you don’t believe Jesus lived then don’t. You can’t prove anybody lived really.
2009, when we’ve educated and civilized ourselves so much from the time of the Greeks that we’re comfortable tearing the 10 commandments off a courthouse lawn and leaving Justitia standing naked out front.
[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
That fictitious character changed the entire course of history, even the calender we all used. Even the atheists took Sunday off. That’s one potent fiction.
You do realize that the calendar we all use is extensively based on a whole pantheon of gods, right?
January: Named after Janus, the God of doors and gates
March: Named after Mars, the God of war
May: Named after Maia, the Goddess of growth of plants
June: from Junius, Latin for the goddess Juno
Tuesday: Named for the day of Tiw, or Tiu, a Teutonic (Anglo-Saxon) deity
Wednesday: The day of Woden is named for the chief Norse God
Thursday: The day of Thor is named for the Norse God
Friday: The Norse goddess Frigg, or Frigga, names that day
Saturday: Translated from the Latin dies Saturni, or the day of Saturn. In Roman mythology, Saturn was the planetary God of agriculture.