[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Then you should be suspect of most of history.[/quote]
Truth!
[quote]suruppak wrote:
I wouldn’t expect him to have much of a paper trail at all given the time period. I wouldn’t expect to find a birth certificate, and I wouldn’t expect to find remnants of a larger record, given the amount of information available to anyone at that time.
Every now and then something surfaces that may or may not be considered part of a larger record, however, like the Gospel of Thomas.
[/quote]
Which brings up an even bigger issue: the Church tries to controls what people believe about Jesus’ history. They effectively are the ones who control it. It might as well all just be a fairy tale in this case because no real truth will be known this way.
I agree. With no currently known contemporary accounts, we may never know the truth. Or maybe there are contemporary accounts that are being held in secret, or were destroyed, for not towing the party line. It’s a shame that we will probably never know.
Oddly enough this prompt reminded me of “Imagination land” which was three south park episodes. More or less, the message of the series was that jesus is literally no different than superman or santa claus or luke skywalker.
The episodes clearly defined the difference between truth and faith, which will be concepts highly relevant to this discussion.
[quote]suruppak wrote:
I agree. With no currently known contemporary accounts, we may never know the truth. Or maybe there are contemporary accounts that are being held in secret, or were destroyed, for not towing the party line. It’s a shame that we will probably never know.
[/quote]
One can never know.
[quote]forlife wrote:
If I recall correctly, not a single new testament record exists that dates back to the time of Jesus. The earliest document (the Rylands Papyrus) is dated 130 A.D., and contains a snippet of text from John.
Many people don’t even realize the “bible” is nothing but an arbitrary collection of writings, which excludes a large number of other writings dated around the same time period, but which didn’t nicely fit into the theological biases of the Pope during the 4th century A.D.[/quote]
actually it is anywhere from 100 to 150 AD or CE.
I have scene 115 - 125 as the most probable
The reason why the gospels are considered to be written in the 1st century is due to the temple still being described as standing. As well as there are allusions in the new testament to it still being around.
Edited to verify date accuracy
[quote]sherekahn wrote:
If you accept that there were numerous prophecies in the Old Testament that were
literally fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus, then there was quite a bit of mention of Him prior to the writing of the
New Testament. As a former math teacher
I can tell you the odds of one person fulfilling so many diverse prophecies that had been written by so many other men from various walks of life over numerous centuries are astronomical.
If you accept historical accounts of the deaths of those followers of His, then it
seems they would have recanted their statements about Him rising from the dead
to save themselves.
If you don’t accept those prophecies and
records of the deaths of His followers, then
the question of who He is becomes more difficult to answer.
If He really did exist and fulfill all those prophecies including rising from the dead then I believe we would have to agree that He was the most unique individual ever to grace this planet.
[/quote]
So what you are saying, as a maths teacher, is that the evidence that he existed is the fact that in a number of badly translated, cobbled together unsupported documents, written by people who had never met him, in order to put forward the concept that he fulfilled previous prophecies, it says that he fulfilled those prophecies.
Sorry if I am misunderstanding your point…
[quote]suruppak wrote:
I wouldn’t expect him to have much of a paper trail at all given the time period. I wouldn’t expect to find a birth certificate, and I wouldn’t expect to find remnants of a larger record, given the amount of information available to anyone at that time.
Every now and then something surfaces that may or may not be considered part of a larger record, however, like the Gospel of Thomas.
[/quote]
Why would you not expect a paper trail? The Romans kept extremely complete documentation and we have a paper trail for a number of people who would have been contemparary.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It might as well all just be a fairy tale in this case because no real truth will be known this way.[/quote]
I hate to spoil the end of “The Da Vinci Code” for this thread, but, did you really believe a something like a burning bush did all the talking in the story of Moses? Was it really important? Just because something is a fairytale does that make it wrong or untrue?
[quote]lucasa wrote:
Just because something is a fairytale does that make it wrong or untrue?[/quote]
It means that maybe such beliefs should not control the center of one’s world view.
Cockney Blue wrote: So what you are saying, as a maths teacher, is that the evidence that he existed is the fact that in a number of badly translated, cobbled together unsupported documents, written by people who had never met him, in order to put forward the concept that he fulfilled previous prophecies, it says that he fulfilled those prophecies.
Sorry if I am misunderstanding your point…
I’m not trying to convince or convert you or anyone else, just responding to a question. Notice, I framed it all in
the form of “if…then”. If you don’t accept these premises, then you surely won’t
accept the conclusion.
When I was 16 there was a homless guy who lived in a tent next to the dumpster behind the liquor store that was on my way to and from school.
I would sit and talk with him occasionally. He drank a lot of hamms malt liquor and would regale me with tales about seeing Led Zepplin live in concert. He had several cats that hung around him too, they all seemed to be very, very fond of him.
Anyway, he looked a lot like jesus. He was a really nice guy too, even though he stunk like a dead hog, I actually enjoyed listening to him.
Then one time my mom took me to the payless shoe store when I was like, 9, to buy some school shoes. This guy that looked like jesus walked in wearing a toga and sandals with a bag and started filling it up with random shoes. Just whatever shoes he could grab he was tossing in his bag. He roamed all over the store filling his bag for like 15 minutes before security ushered him out. He kept screaming “I’m jesus! i’m jesus, you can’t do this!”
It was really fucking weird.
I think that the jesus in the bible was the old world version of one of the types I described above. Just a crazy dude that got a lot of attention and was very charming.
Of course he existed! He was a pederass, and a damn good bowler.
Don’t fuck with da jesus <_<
You guys may care to check out Reviews of Best Structured Settlement Companies - The God Movie if you find the question intriguing
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
When I was 16 there was a homless guy who lived in a tent next to the dumpster behind the liquor store that was on my way to and from school.
I would sit and talk with him occasionally. He drank a lot of hamms malt liquor and would regale me with tales about seeing Led Zepplin live in concert. He had several cats that hung around him too, they all seemed to be very, very fond of him.
Anyway, he looked a lot like jesus. He was a really nice guy too, even though he stunk like a dead hog, I actually enjoyed listening to him.
Then one time my mom took me to the payless shoe store when I was like, 9, to buy some school shoes. This guy that looked like jesus walked in wearing a toga and sandals with a bag and started filling it up with random shoes. Just whatever shoes he could grab he was tossing in his bag. He roamed all over the store filling his bag for like 15 minutes before security ushered him out. He kept screaming “I’m jesus! i’m jesus, you can’t do this!”
It was really fucking weird.
I think that the jesus in the bible was the old world version of one of the types I described above. Just a crazy dude that got a lot of attention and was very charming.[/quote]
Nice story.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It means that maybe such beliefs should not control the center of one’s world view.[/quote]
First, whether you want them to or not, they do. ‘Don’t kill’, ‘don’t lie’, ‘don’t steal’, etc. all sculpt society and keep the wheels generally turning.
Second, much the same way these values keep the train on the tracks, similar fairytale beliefs/indifference run the rest of your life. Very few people could explain a message board from electrons and semiconductors, through transistors, logic gates, binary, assemblers, memory, and associated code, operating systems and code, browsers and scripting languages, monitors and photovoltaics, etc. It all makes questioning the reality of an electron seems kind of pointless. Not that you should blindly believe, but at some point continuing to question it stops yielding useful information/results without detracting from the system as a whole.
Third, one benefit of the human mind is that it can always imagine things different and sometimes, better. Not to be disparaging, but an actual prophet who warred against various tribes and city/states then said killing was wrong could hardly be as virtuous as one who’s greatest sin (if he existed) was doubting his father.
You get rid of Hansel and Gretel because you don’t meet too many witches in the woods (even at that, people are always leaving a trail of breadcrumbs), you get rid of the tooth fairy because you stop losing teeth, discarding something like Christianity because JC may or may not have existed is really somewhat backwards.
CB:
“Why would you not expect a paper trail? The Romans kept extremely complete documentation and we have a paper trail for a number of people who would have been contemparary.”
Yes, and I am sure that there are plenty of people who existed and were executed with no Roman paper trail.
I’m a computer programmer, and there is supposed to be documentation for each and every program in existence. We have tons of technology to help make this so. I estimate about 60% of the programs are actually in the docs.
So, my point was that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in the case of 2000 year old paper trails.
Lifticvs wrote:
"It means that maybe such beliefs should not control the center of one’s world view. "
I agree, but I thought we were discussing more the historical Jesus rather than the existence of the god. Anyone who believes in Jesus as the son of god is going to believe he existed whether there is evidence or not!
[quote]lucasa wrote:
First, whether you want them to or not, they do. ‘Don’t kill’, ‘don’t lie’, ‘don’t steal’, etc. all sculpt society and keep the wheels generally turning. [/quote]
Oh, yeah! I am sure before Christianity took root these actions were considered “good.”
Religion is not necessary for proper ethical education. Though I am sure some people still need the threat of going to hell…
I don’t know…If I am reaclling right there are other historical references to James the Just, John the Evangelist, and Peter who were said to know Jesus personally and basically the founders of the Catholic Church. All three of them could have gotten together and made this guy up? Maybe, you could view the resurection story as a nice cover for why you could not find any evidence of him.
I actually think he existed and was one of the great philsophers of history. The founders of the church have probably enhanced his story with some other worldly powers to influence converts. Strip all the hocus-pocus out of the gospel and you have an interesting philosophy text.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
He’s a completely mythical character.
What say you?[/quote]
Some people say he was a nice boy who went into his father’s business. Personally as Lutheran and having faith, I would say he’s the son of God and the savior. Of course I could be wrong, but I’ll eventually find it out.
This is always a stupid debate. If he was the savior, we won’t know. If he wasn’t we won’t know. but we’re all going to find out one way or another.
I’d rather believe and be wrong, than be wrong and not believe. It doesn’t cost me any more more to be a Christian as opposed to now being.
As for the irrationality of it. I don’t see anyone proving anything one way or another now, so I’ll stick to my beliefs.