T Nation

Who Can Beat Brock?


#1

I'd like to get off the antics after the fight and focus for a minute on what happened in the cage, and what his possible future fights could look like.

Brock posseses a very rare combination of power, size and speed along with very very good wrestling abilities. There have been other big strong wrestlers in MMA but no one that is his size. I'll go through a couple of possible future matches and give my strength vs weakness of each. Listed by his best chance of losing.

1) Brock Vs Barnett. Even if fedor beats barnett, I still think barnett has a better game to handle brock than fedor does. Barnett is a good strong wrestler, but more importantly, he has a wide array of strong submissions. I think he could avoid brocks power on the feet and bait brock into shooting, he is probably the only person outside of lashley that could controlo a brock shoot and get himself into top position from it. As with many wrestlers, brock will be a fish out of water on his back, so it will be barnetts' wrestling ability to keep him down and either gnp him or get him in a sub. I don't think you can beat brock from your back, regardless of who you are.

2) Brock vs Fedor. I think Fedor has a couple good things going for him but he has been worked by other wrestlers in the past, Arona and Randleman were both working him pretty good before he turned the tables on them. Niether of those wrestlers are as big and strong as brock, so if he just lays and prays, he could easily get a decision over fedor. Fedor has possibly the best striking of any heavyweight in history, so he has a shot at KOing brock, but to be honest, I think brock will just go for the takedown and get it.

Fedor is obviously good at submitting from the bottom, but again, I do not think he will be able to get out from under brock if/when brock gets him to the ground and gets on top. In a 5 round fight, all brock will have to do is get a takedown each round, and he wins out the round. Fedor will have to do much more work to get the win.

3) Brock vs Lashley. Here is a guy who is as big and strong as brock and as good of a wrestler. he only has 4 MMA fights, but brock only has 5, granted they are against much better fighters. I think we really need to see lashley take on a couple top level guys but he could be just as real as lesnar. To be honest, I could rank lashley as the #1 threat to brock but we just don't know enough about either one of them.

So far every fight they have both been in they have used thier strength and wrestling to take guys down, hold them and pound on them. If they couldn't do it to eachother, they would have to stand and bang, or it would be the most boring fight ever, essentially turning into a wrestling match with little to no effective striking from either.

4) Brock vs Overeem. Alistar is a big strong dude and he has good agility. He is more of a standup guy, but he might be able to stay out of brocks takedown for a while. If brock took him down, I think it would be over quickly as I don't think he is the toughest fighter out there as far as being able to take damage. I think Overeem has the best chance of getting a nice highlight reel knockout on brock, but in all likleyhood it would be a 1 out of 10 fights type of thing, with brock manhandling him and pounding him out on the ground the other 9.

5) Brock vs Carwin. Just because so many people in the other threads are saying they wan't/hope/think carwin can knock brock out. See above but with less agility, and maybe more power. He has one shot, and that is to knock out brock before brock takes his first shot. If brock isn't sleeping in the first 30 seconds of the fight, carwin is going to look like a cubed steak. I'd say he could accomplish the knockout 1 out of 100 times.

There are some more but I'll let other people add thier own or comment on mine.

V


#2

I think it's a toss up in your top 4. (Good top 5 picks though) I am another one that is pulling for Carwin to win, but Brock is a beast, simply put.


#3

Ummmm.. no.

Here are my re-ordered top 5

1) Fedor- could very easily knock Brock out on the feet, or submit him from the ground. (see Randleman)
2) Shane Carwin- You are very off in your thinking that Carwin is a striker only. He was the NCAA Division II National Champion Heavyweight, and a two time all american in football. He is every bit as agile as Brock, and can hold his own on the ground, while being a much more polished striker.
3) Barnett is not as good as wrestler as Brock, I would be very surprised if he gets on top of Brock Lesnar. However, he could knock him out or submit him. Has a vast edge in experience.
4) Nogueira- Yes, Frank Mir knocked him out, but Brock Lesnar is not on the same level stand up wise as Frank Mir. Brock has power shots that Noguiera should be able to defend. If it goes to the ground, no one is as versed in taking a beating as Minotauro. He is also bigger than Frank, which could help in pulling off the submission that Mir couldn't get.
5) Overeem- I like Allistairs chances of knocking brock out, but could he really avoid the takedown?

Honorable mention- Frank Mir, Cheick Kongo, Andrei Arlovski, Brett Rogers

Bobby Lashley is not even in the same ballpark at this point in his career.


#4

It'll just take time for camps to figure out an effective game plan against him. There's like what, 10 minutes of fight tape to study on Brock right now?


#5

Not sure how you can say that about lashley, he has one less fight. Like I said, we need to see him against a top level guy, but he absolutely walked through bob sapp, which someone of average ability probably isn't going to do. Not sure who else he can fight at the moment, maybe he can fight overeem? That would probably be a steep step up in competition, but I can see him taking overeem down and pounding him good.

I'll say this about Fedor, if he wants to fight brock, he better shit or get off the pot, every month that goes by with brock working his ass off to get better is just going to make it that much harder for anyone to beat him. If I was fedor and thinking "well I need to fight brock now that he just destroyed the UFC heaveyweight division, but I don't want to get beat because it will ruin my legacy" Then I would call dana right now and say, I'm in, I fight brock next for the title. If brock gets to fight 2 or 3 more fights it's going to be bad for fedor.

V


#6

What if the only effective game plan someone can come up with is to bring a baseball bat?

V


#7

Ungs9, You mentioned Kongo but not Cain Velasquez. Didn't Velasquez recently man-handle Kongo? What makes you think Brock couldn't do the same?


#8

I don't believe he will continue to exponentially increase in his capability as a fighter. I think the Brock we saw on saturday is more or less what will be his style/gameplan/conditioning for the rest of his career. You can't turn someone into a world class striker... He's basically gonna be a heavyweight Matt Hughes. So all we need is a HW GSP to come along in 5 years and beat him... I for one don't particularly like his style, it's not entertaining, it's effective as hell, just not entertaining.

Along that vein, I see Carwin and Fedor being major contenders. For Carwin, maybe he takes a few more fights and gets better before a shot. He has real pop for a heavy, 1 hit KO power, which Brock has yet to demonstrate. If Carwin hit Herring with he punch Brock did, he'd of been out like a light. Also, Carwin is an accomplished wrestler and football player, as well as similarly framed as Brock, which I see as neutralizing the advantage Brock had against all of his opponents thus far. Finally, Carwin displayed how he had the presence of mind while rocked to still land a decisive blow against Gonzaga.

Fedor, well he's Fedor. Crazy strikes, ground game that noone in the heavy or light heavy division can neutralize, taken out many giants before.

I wish Arlovski hadn't fallen off. A prime Arlovski v. Brock right now would be a great match up, imo.


#9

I'd say of the up and coming guys, Shane Carwin and Gonzaga both have what it takes to beat Brock Lesnar. I also think Nogueira can do it. and I wouldn't count out Frank Mir or Randy Couture just yet. The HW division in the UFC is better than it has ever been.

the big flaw in Lesnar's game is that he's too one dimensional and he's inexperienced. size and wrestling won't last forever, that's why I expect Shane Carwin to do well. I think Carwin's wrestling is equal to or better than Lesnar's because it's been a while since Lesnar was in the NCAA and Carwin is more experienced with werstling for MMA + he is a purple belt in BJJ. Shane is also a very good striker.

Size won't matter much because Shane Carwin also comes in at 265lbs.

I expect Carwin to nullify Lesnar's only strengths. wrestling and size.


#10

That initial list makes no sense. Bobby Lashley????? Beating Bob Sapp and beating Frank Mir are two entirely different things. Saying that Fedor would be in trouble with Brock is retarded. One slip up and Fedor capitalizes, collects his check and goes home. Carwin is who I personally would like to see the most: a giant HW with impressive wrestling and a sledgehammer right. I still think Mir can beat him if he stands and lands, not sprays and prays. Any big, accurate striker would give Lesnar fits [I think]. I don't give a shit what anyone says, we've yet to see him take a flush shot to the face and how he'd react. Mir grazed him two or three times and it looked like it threw Lesnar off for a bit. He just didn't stick with it.

Think Nog would be alot for him to handle as well. I like whoever said we're looking at a HW Matt Hughes in reference to Lesnar. That seems pretty on point. Not sure how Velasquez would fare as he seems to be just a wrestler and it would hard [impossible?] to dump Lesnar on his ass. Bring back CroCop and the high left head kick of death!!!


#11

I like the way you think Joey.


#12

I just can't imagine what a 265 lb St Pierre would look like? Overeem? I think there is a bit of difference between someone being a well rounded 170lb fighter and someone being a well rounded 265lb fighter. I personally hoep fedor fights him and win, fedor is my favorite fighter, I just hate the matchup for him due to the trouble he has had in the past with wrestlers who were smaller and not nearly as strong as brock. I don't think a lot of people understand how strong brock is. Lets put it this way. a 500 lb deadlift is pretty decent. a LOT of people couldn't pull it off the ground. Brock took a 500lb bigshow, which was probably more like 450-480 and picked him up on his shoulders and gave him an f-5. He essentially push pressed him over his head whilst spinning him. And this isn't a barbell, it's a human being (well kindof) Brock is strongman strong, I mean really that strong, and he is fast, not just for his size, he is fast period. You could be right about a GSP like heavyweight coming along and beating him, I think though if fedor can't do it, probably no one can. (allthough barnett might be able to)

V


#13

You like me, you really like me!


#14

Man the last fight I saw of Barnett he looked old and fat... so I dunno about that guy

Side note: I do value what Brock will force within the HW division, that being ACTUAL heavyweight fighters. Not 220 pounders who should be light heavies. There's no room for those guys anymore, atleast not without insane skill/experience. There will be larger, more athletic heavyweight champions, unlike Tim fuckface Silvia of yore. I for one am excited to see what the hw division has in 5 years as far as manpower, I can see some real monsters evolving. As in that 265 pound GSP I mentioned earlier.


#15

The UFC [maybe all orgs] is either gonna have to add another division to accomodate the new breed of Heavies or guys like Couture are gonna have to drop like you said. The size difference is just too much. Roy Jones' dad said it best: "You don't run a Volkswagon into a Mack truck."


#16

Arlovsky, Carwin, Fedor and Gonzaga would be my top picks. I haven't seen enough of the other guys mentioned here to know (Overeem would seem like a long shot because I think Lesnar would take it to the ground in a matter of seconds and finish him quickly). Kongo also would fit this category. He would have to go the entire fight without being on the ground and I don't see any chance of that. I personally would love to see someone beat Lesnar as I personally think he is a world class horse's butt but he is probably going to be around awhile. All I see in that guy is WWE antics. There's".

My reasonimg for my top picks are all the same for each one. They all have knockout power and are aggressive. You can't wait on Lesnar. Offensive minded fighters with power should have little problem with Lesnar. Randy stunned him more than once and he isn't the most powerful striker at HW. Someone on another thread said Lesnar walked right through Mir's strikes (hands and knees) but that's not what I saw. Each one stopped Lesnar, if only for a second. Lesnar doesn't seem to be comfortable being struck in the face and all my picks will come to him with power. I just think an aggressive striker, once he lands one good shot will finish Brock in dramatic fashion. If any of these guys land a solid strike to the head, I think it's over. At least I hope. They will then be my new favorite fighter!! Just my thoughts.......


#17

Perhaps true, make a super-heavyweight class for like 240-275 lbs? it will all depend on what fighters are in the organization of course.


#18

Damn I want to see Bobby Lashley fight him.


#19

Good post.

As for Carwin's size...he has a bigger head than Brock(lol) and cuts from 280lbs 2 months before fights. I wonder if he will just keep that weight and try to cut and walk in the cage at 280lbs for Brock. Although,Carwin weigh in at 259lbs against Gonzaga. I wonder if he's trying to find right balance with his weight and conditioning/agility.


#20

i think Kongo and Gonzaga are good match-ups for him.

while i think Velasquez and Carwin are tough, they're basically just wrestlers that aren't as big, strong and explosive as him, so won't have any real advantage.

i think the true challenge for him is either a real striker (like Kongo), or a wild card type like Gonzaga.

if he gets some good people around him, i think he can improve for quite some time, and be damn near unbeatble if he brings up his striking and transitions.