Who Benefits From the Gas Prices?

[quote]doogie wrote:
snipeout wrote:
We should have let saddam take both countries, then waltz in like we did, stomp him out, then we would be OPEC. Nice thought at least. Let the liberal flames spark up, I live for political discussion!!

Excellent. See, I told you we agree on 99% of stuff.

The thing is the oil companies are eventually going to run out of oil. Not many other big-ass industries face that kind of extinction. So they are taking what they can get now, knowing they aren’t going to be around forever.
[/quote]

This is one reason, another is the fact that Soe Asian countries (namely china) are increasing demand faster than the US is causing world oil prices to rise due to simple economics. With a few 3rd and 2nd world countries increasing a consumerist nature an already predictied finite resource just becomes more expensive.

Some good information here, and some crap.

The current prices are way out of line as to where they actually should be. Investors are keeping the oil prices elevated, and any little piece of information that comes out is used to bump prices up.

There was an interview recently with somebody who ran one of those refineries here in America, and he said that reporters are suddenly interested in minor events that never made the news, nor affected prices in the past.

The prices are teetering on the edge of tulip investing.

Now there is also China, which is a long term effect on global demand, but still should not be pushing prices this high.

Then there is all the research into pulling more energy out of a gallon of gas, which interestingly has gone into horsepower and not efficiency.

But the biggest reason is that people are willing to pay the prices here. A lot of people complain, but until people take action and actually try to cut their use of gas, and therefore demand, then it will take a while for gas prices to normalize.

Also right now the American economy is booming. The gas prices are doing what higher interest rated from the Fed would normally do, and keeping the economy from “overheating”. So believe it or not, this may be beneficial for the economy right now. But if our economy starts to turn, you had better start hoping for lower energy prices.

But the gas prices are already having an effect. Smaller SUV’s are more popular then the larger ones. Hummer, which made 8mpg popular, actually released a new 25mpg model. There is a 35mpg hybrid coming out, or is it out already? Can’t remember right now.

Anyway every time somebody buys a car, that little mpg sticker is a little more important, and has more influence then it did a few years ago. These things are cumulative, and will slow demand, and therefore have an effect on prices.

Barring some major event, (i.e. civil war in Saudi Arabia, refinery explosion, anything in Iran, etc…) I give it 6 months at most before prices come crashing down.

In the meantime, get your car tuned up, keep the tires inflated, do not search for the “good” parking, walk, jog, or ride a bike if you can, (we’re fucking T-men after all) and have an effect on demand.

Yeah, lets grab some reality with both hands around here…

There is a little thing known as supply and demand – generally prices are driven by this.

OPEC has no need to sell us any oil at all, other than to avoid losing their income or risk being stomped on by holding back on what is currently an economic necessity in the global community. In short, stop crying about OPEC, you don’t have to like it, and they don’t care whether you do or don’t.

Whether democrat or republican, most of us have jobs that require us to get to work. Rightly or wrongly, society is structured in a way that “getting there” generally demands the use of a vehicle. I’m not going to throw away my ability to earn an income because I’d like lower prices - that is what it would take to do some type of boycott for most people. Let’s get serious, that will not happen.

So, if you really want to do something, either buy shares in oil companies as prices are likely to rise for decades or hurry up and invent some type of disruptive technology that obviates our need for oil in a price effective manner.

Did I miss anything?

Oh, a thought, it might even make sense to wait until oil prices are “really” high before opening up the presumed Alaskan oil fields. If you get them going too soon, they’ll be drained in X years, at the same time the rest of the world is feeling the crunch… wouldn’t it be nice to have them in reserve when everyone else is fubared?

[quote]The Mage wrote:
But the gas prices are already having an effect. Smaller SUV’s are more popular then the larger ones. Hummer, which made 8mpg popular, actually released a new 25mpg model. There is a 35mpg hybrid coming out, or is it out already? Can’t remember right now.

[/quote]

Yep, Ford Escape Hybrid. About 34mpg (combined). The Honda Insight sports 64mpg (combined) and Toyota’s Prius has 55mpg (combined). My Scion xA gets about 35mpg on average, but it is not a hybrid, just a regular four cylinder. I fill up just as often as I did with my Explorer, but it only costs $23 for a fill up instead of $40+. Glad I got it!

Many people from the typical right and left of T-Nation seem pretty reasonable on this one.

The only thing I have to add is boycotting Exxon Mobil would have no effect on prices, although it would hurt their station owners.

Exxon Mobil would just sell their gas to Shell or BP or anyone else.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
Americans have enjoyed cheap petrol (gas to you guys) for far too long IMHO. This is the reason you are still driving gas-guzzling SUVs and V8s. In fact, you are still enjoying cheap fuel. $3 a gallon, I seem to recall from another thread. Well whoopy-doo. Around $1.10 a liter in Aus at the moment, and that is still cheap. A pound a liter in the UK, I gather.

Besides which, even at the European prices, just how much of your weekly budget really goes on fuel? Not very much, in nearly all cases. The main costs of running a car are still depreciation and insurance.

Grow up and stop whinging![/quote]

The main difference between U.S. and European prices is taxes; i.e. the European countries tax gas at a higher rate.

To answer the initial question, higher gas prices benefit state and local governments (at least those who have sales taxes that are a percent of the overall cost), and most likely benefit someone along the supply chain from oil producers to processors to sellers, but it depends on the difference between their costs of obtaining their respective products and cost of sales versus the price.

Is anyone concerned about the long term implications of the world’s oil dependency? Sure, prices will fluctuate in the near future, but overall they will increase dramatically. Oil is finite, after all. We can’t pump this stuff economically for much longer - Peak Oil comes to mind.

I’m not sure how many people realize just how critical the upcoming oil shortage will be. If you’re mainly concerned about having to pay for extra expenive fuel for your daily commute, that will be the least of your concerns. We essentially live off oil. The production, packaging and distribution of food is higly dependent on oil and its numerous by-proudcts. So you can forget about eating 5000kcal worth of food per day. Or drinking 5 gallons of water, since pumping and distributing this essential nutrient is made possible by oil derived fuels. No need to mention the transportation sectors, which all rely on fossil fuels to keep the global economy moving and goods on the shelf.

Plastics, certain medicine supplies, you can kiss those goodbye too. They all require a stream of petroleum by-products for production. Black gold is literally the life blood of the modern industrialized society. Without a cheap and abuntant supply, economies and lifestyles come to a halt.

What about the mighty U.S. dollar? Sadly, the US and world market/economy is very much built around the cheap availability of sweet crude. Economic collapse is inevitable after peak oil.

A source for my claims:

[quote]Boangiu wrote:
Is anyone concerned about the long term implications of the world’s oil dependency? Sure, prices will fluctuate in the near future, but overall they will increase dramatically. Oil is finite, after all. We can’t pump this stuff economically for much longer - Peak Oil comes to mind.

I’m not sure how many people realize just how critical the upcoming oil shortage will be. If you’re mainly concerned about having to pay for extra expenive fuel for your daily commute, that will be the least of your concerns. We essentially live off oil. The production, packaging and distribution of food is higly dependent on oil and its numerous by-proudcts. So you can forget about eating 5000kcal worth of food per day. Or drinking 5 gallons of water, since pumping and distributing this essential nutrient is made possible by oil derived fuels. No need to mention the transportation sectors, which all rely on fossil fuels to keep the global economy moving and goods on the shelf.

Plastics, certain medicine supplies, you can kiss those goodbye too. They all require a stream of petroleum by-products for production. Black gold is literally the life blood of the modern industrialized society. Without a cheap and abuntant supply, economies and lifestyles come to a halt.

What about the mighty U.S. dollar? Sadly, the US and world market/economy is very much built around the cheap availability of sweet crude. Economic collapse is inevitable after peak oil.

A source for my claims:

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/[/quote]

I am not concerned.

Only when demand far exceeds the oil supply will alternative forms of energy become economical.

When this occurs we will make the switch. It will likely be a very gradual changeover. It has been happening slowly for a while.

The oil supply is not going to dry up overnight.

That site is fear-mongering at its worst.

I am more concerned with the sun exploding than I am with oil drying up.

Halliburton and George W. Bush are the only direct beneficiaries of higher oil prices.

Still pissed that the Iraqi War (aka… War for Oil) hasn’t lowered my gas prices.

Come on Dick Cheney/GWB, you sit on the “boards.” Let’s get those prices down!!!

JeffR

[quote]sharetrader wrote:

Ha! So the rest of the world owes it to you to sell oil to you for less than they can get elsewhere?

[/quote]

No… I didn’t say or even IMPLY that did I? I think what I, and serveral others, are saying is we (ALL COUNTRIES, ALL PEOPLE) need to do something about this, and fast.

You are misinturpretting the timing of my post / this thread as ignorance on the topic, when I have been vividly aware of this for a long time.

OPEC has us over a barrel. No pun intended. We need to deveolp the vast underground oil reserves of Alaska and then tell the Arabs to take a hike!

(How is that for simplistic, yet, basically true?)

Please, not another Peak Oil thread. Go look up the old one…

[quote]Boangiu wrote:

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/[/quote]

I believe we have already debated the person who started this website. In fact (if you are not him) he may pop up now that this subject has been mentioned.

There is a limited supply of oil, but the peak oil people are distorting the facts, and not taking everything into account. Such as heavy oil, and other harder to get, or process oils.

Cars can easily switch to ethanol, and ethanol has been proven to produce more energy then used to develop it, which is one of the faulty argument of peak oil advocates.

Another you mentioned is plastic. They make it all the time out of plants, and have developed a special corn that is already plastic, so they can grow plastic.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Halliburton and George W. Bush are the only direct beneficiaries of higher oil prices.

Still pissed that the Iraqi War (aka… War for Oil) hasn’t lowered my gas prices.

Come on Dick Cheney/GWB, you sit on the “boards.” Let’s get those prices down!!!

JeffR[/quote]

I dont know if you are being sarcastic here, but I fear that I may actually agree with something Jeff said (this is a first).

My point for starting this thread is not to bash Arabs or OPEC. I am a Democrat, and I think that if we controlled the oil supply like they did, we would “gouge” also. My point is that while we are paying so much, THE OIL COMPANIES ARE REPORTING RECORD PROFITS!! This is what irritates me. OPEC is not gouging us, Exxon is. This is what I meant by the boycott statement (something that was said after watching that report, and I was pissed). An oil man is President, an oil man is vice president, and we invaded a country that is full of oil. But the price is still 2.39 a gallon. Well fellas, somethin’ there just don’t make sense. The profit is going somewhere…

@Zap Branigan:

I’m sorry for bursting your bubble of optimism, but expecting the governments to fix the energy crisis with the help of some technological magic dust is completely suicidal.

Alternatives are available and they are slowly making their way into the market, as you say. Problem is, the energy provided by all renewables combined totals to roughly 10% of global generation, hardly enough to threaten the king of energy, crude oil. We are making progress and yes we are getting there, but not quick enough to prevent widespread economic disruptions. Don’t forget that transforming the petroleum based economies will require astronomical investments of fossil fuels and capital.

Keep in mind that the global demand-supply gap has already been established, which is likely to steadily increase over the coming years. An estimated 1,000,000 bpd capacity will be lost each year after peak-oil (check the CNN Oil Crunch 2005 report). Perhaps a few years down the road, as nations reflect on their declining economies, the quest for economic overhaul will intensify and people will get really serious about renewable, clean energy. But with each passing year, making the transition will be increasingly difficult due to an ever increasing demand-supply gap. Not to mention the fact that most of the hyped alternative fuels (a) offer a negative energy return, (b) require fossil fuels to be created or (c) require large amounts of fertile land to be commercialized, in the case for ethanol.

Ok, now that peak oil is again the topic, and now that I actually have time to respond, I will point out some of the flaws in talking about peak oil.

First, I will admit that there is a maximum production, or peak, and that oil reserves are not finite. But we have not yet hit that peak, so until that peak is hit, prices will be completely unrelated to peak oil. The current prices are related to the market forces, and overzealous investors. Not peak oil.

Now alarmists have predicted peak oil as early as 1995, and now 2007 is the popular time, or 2005 - 2010. On the opposite side is the US Geological Survey estimates that current production can continue for 50 - 100 years.

Now I will admit that there may be flaws in the Geological Survey estimate, but at the worst, I would cut their estimate in half to 25 - 50 years. Makes it important, but not the dire problem we are told it is.

But both of these estimates only include the easy to get oil. It does not include heavy oil, which may be 2 to 3 times as abundant as the light stuff. Nor does it include oil shale. Oil shale may need a little more technology, but heavy oil is here now.

There is also some argument as to how much of a peak the peak really will be, and if there really will be a big drop off, or a slower decline.

Something else not taken into account is how people react. Looking around, I have paid attention to the number of SUV’s and vans on the street, and there used to be about 50% car, 50% SUV. Interestingly it is now about 2 our of 3 are cars. Not scientific I know, but I believe it is accurate. I also have seen a large increase in motorcycles.

On the production side, did anyone here know that solar pumps are starting to be used to extract oil? They used to burn oil to run the pumps, but using solar is like getting free oil, because it would have otherwise gone up in smoke.

Ultimately I am not worried, and the biggest reason is technology. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. And a good example is in the early 80’s when a couple of billionaire brothers decided to corner the silver market. Their buying pushed up the price of silver, and investors jumped on the bandwagon to push it up even higher, until it was discovered there was no real reason for the high prices.

Now during this time the biggest user of silver was Kodak. They used it to develop pictures. But when prices rose, they did a little research and came up with a silver free development process.

Now in the late 80’s, I heard an interesting fact, that at that time, the least efficient car put out by ford got better gas mileage then the most efficient model they had 15 years prior.

It is a mistake to look at what is going on now, and assuming nothing will change. Oil will become easier to find, and easier to extract, flattening out the “peak”. Also the higher the price of oil, the more people change their habits, and the more receptive the market becomes to fuel efficient cars, and alternate fuel sources.

The alarmists only talk about instantaneous replacement, not taking into account the possibility of alternate energy used as a supplement, at least at first, again weakening the “peak”. Also when you only look at one idea in a vacuum, you end up with a distorted view. But taking everything into account, people responding to higher fuel costs, more efficient vehicles, alternate sources of energy, and coming future technology, combined this may not stop the drop in available oil production, but it might just slow it down enough that it is manageable, and less harmful to the market, and delays it even further to the point that technology has time to catch up.

Did you know that Fed-Ex and UPS are planning on phasing in fuel cell trucks over the next few years? Chrysler, Ford, and GM have spent a combined $2 billion developing fuel cells. Do you think they would do that if there were no future in it?

I am not worried at all.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Halliburton and George W. Bush are the only direct beneficiaries of higher oil prices.

Still pissed that the Iraqi War (aka… War for Oil) hasn’t lowered my gas prices.

Come on Dick Cheney/GWB, you sit on the “boards.” Let’s get those prices down!!!

JeffR[/quote]

Oh oh i got my head handed to me for alluding to this in my other thread.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Ok, now that peak oil is again the topic, and now that I actually have time to respond, I will point out some of the flaws in talking about peak oil.

First, I will admit that there is a maximum production, or peak, and that oil reserves are not finite. But we have not yet hit that peak, so until that peak is hit, prices will be completely unrelated to peak oil. The current prices are related to the market forces, and overzealous investors. Not peak oil.

Now alarmists have predicted peak oil as early as 1995, and now 2007 is the popular time, or 2005 - 2010. On the opposite side is the US Geological Survey estimates that current production can continue for 50 - 100 years.

Now I will admit that there may be flaws in the Geological Survey estimate, but at the worst, I would cut their estimate in half to 25 - 50 years. Makes it important, but not the dire problem we are told it is.

But both of these estimates only include the easy to get oil. It does not include heavy oil, which may be 2 to 3 times as abundant as the light stuff. Nor does it include oil shale. Oil shale may need a little more technology, but heavy oil is here now.

There is also some argument as to how much of a peak the peak really will be, and if there really will be a big drop off, or a slower decline.

Something else not taken into account is how people react. Looking around, I have paid attention to the number of SUV’s and vans on the street, and there used to be about 50% car, 50% SUV. Interestingly it is now about 2 our of 3 are cars. Not scientific I know, but I believe it is accurate. I also have seen a large increase in motorcycles.

On the production side, did anyone here know that solar pumps are starting to be used to extract oil? They used to burn oil to run the pumps, but using solar is like getting free oil, because it would have otherwise gone up in smoke.

Ultimately I am not worried, and the biggest reason is technology. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. And a good example is in the early 80’s when a couple of billionaire brothers decided to corner the silver market. Their buying pushed up the price of silver, and investors jumped on the bandwagon to push it up even higher, until it was discovered there was no real reason for the high prices.

Now during this time the biggest user of silver was Kodak. They used it to develop pictures. But when prices rose, they did a little research and came up with a silver free development process.

Now in the late 80’s, I heard an interesting fact, that at that time, the least efficient car put out by ford got better gas mileage then the most efficient model they had 15 years prior.

It is a mistake to look at what is going on now, and assuming nothing will change. Oil will become easier to find, and easier to extract, flattening out the “peak”. Also the higher the price of oil, the more people change their habits, and the more receptive the market becomes to fuel efficient cars, and alternate fuel sources.

The alarmists only talk about instantaneous replacement, not taking into account the possibility of alternate energy used as a supplement, at least at first, again weakening the “peak”. Also when you only look at one idea in a vacuum, you end up with a distorted view. But taking everything into account, people responding to higher fuel costs, more efficient vehicles, alternate sources of energy, and coming future technology, combined this may not stop the drop in available oil production, but it might just slow it down enough that it is manageable, and less harmful to the market, and delays it even further to the point that technology has time to catch up.

Did you know that Fed-Ex and UPS are planning on phasing in fuel cell trucks over the next few years? Chrysler, Ford, and GM have spent a combined $2 billion developing fuel cells. Do you think they would do that if there were no future in it?

I am not worried at all. [/quote]

And in essence i agree 100%.

Sigh… with respect to the title of the thread, I can’t get Apu’s song out of my head.

Who needs the Quickie Mart…

NOT ME!

[There, maybe posting it will get the damned thing out of my head… sorry if it drives you nuts from now on]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sigh… with respect to the title of the thread, I can’t get Apu’s song out of my head.

Who needs the Quickie Mart…

NOT ME!

[There, maybe posting it will get the damned thing out of my head… sorry if it drives you nuts from now on][/quote]

Their floors are sticky mart

Lets hurl a bricky mart

The qucky mart is real DOH

Now it is going through my head. Thanks.