T Nation

Which Type of Fighting

To be quite honest i"ve been in a BUNCH of street fights…and I’ve trained quite a few martial arts though I’m still relatively young.

Baguazhang to Ninjutsu to Kali.

but…

Nothing prepares you for a street fight like a streetfight.

Martial Arts will give you skills and coordination but you’ll be surprised at the few limited techniques you use in the street.

I’d have to go with something like Krav Maga that gives you a good overall base. Knee’s and elbows are your bread and butter. Or you can train pure MMA, but if you do that, you set yourself into rules that don’t exist in the street… no groin shots, eye attacks, scratching etc… at least krav maga takes this as a factor and warns you about it.

Ever fight someone who was coked out? Well they don’t exactly remember the ‘rules’. Believe me on that one.

But when it comes down to it, have an advantage… IE, if he’s empty handed have a weapon… if he has a weapon have a better one.

Brass knuckles are easy to obtain and conceal… you can also get the polymer type that don’t go off in security alarms… I’ve yet to test them yet (on a live subject) it doesn’t have the weight (maybe about 60% of the weight though) but it’s nice.if you’re going somewhere put them in your shoes…let them pat u down… go to the bath room and take them out your shoes. Done.

Billy clubs are also fairly easy to obtain. To learn to stickfight, please do yourself a favor and go to dogbrothers.com to learn how to properly use that shit.

Folders are easy to obtain and for the most part you can excuse wearing one (for work etc). There’s a lot of literature on using those for combat I’d check out Paladin press.

Or take it to the next level and get a firearm but thats a whole other discussion. Point Shooting would be your cirriculum of choice.

All of these are readily available if you live in a big city. Los Angeles, New York, obtaining weapons even firearms is child play.

If you’re not in a big city search around online… most places will say they don’t ship to whatever area cause of laws regulating those weapons.

Whatever they still ship them :stuck_out_tongue: I’ve never had a problem and I’ve bought some serious shit. (I collect)

Good luck with street defense it’s some serious shit. To get into.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
I guess it depends on what you consider a street fight. My impression is a life or death situation, against multiple opponents with various weapons.

First, any judo, BJJ, or wrestling is worthless, because as soon as you take one opponent to the ground, the others will kick the shit out of you.
Second, boxing, Muay Thai, Tae kwon do (sp?), and some karate is worthless as it is geared toward tournaments, with no exposure to multiple opponents or weapons.

Kung Fu San Soo teaches you all of this. The man who brought KFSS to America always stated that if a fight last more than 2 seconds, you’re doing something wrong, which is exactly the mentality you need. Maximum damage in minimum time. If you are unable to find a KFSS teacher, Krav Maga would be a good alternative, I understand they have a lot in common.[/quote]

I have a black belt in Kung Fu San Soo haha… I’ll have to agree that in a conflict when its going to really be ‘done’ in 1-2 moves.

San Soo is no joke.

Someone approaches you and wants to fight? Eye gouge, knee him in the balls, takedown, stomp on his ankle so he can’t get back up.

There are a lot of flippy-dippy tricks… ie helicopters, or scissor kick takedowns but if you make a commitment yourself to the “boring” techniques you can be VERY lethal and VERY fast. If you train with the right people there are guys who stay in shape, train san soo and move like fucking CATS. Not that there’s anything bad with learning those techniques just don’t emphasize them.

Though I’ve pulled off a helicopter in a fight, it just threw the guy to the ground, when there were about 10000000 different ways to maim the guy. Most times flippy dippy stuff is just a waste of energy.

But I think that San Soo needs to be worked in with more pad work so that you get used to actually hitting something and that mma type sparring should be used to kind of test yourself. ((Also the guy I trained with was a former golden glove boxer so what that added to his striking system made it quite a bit more effective to me, I’ve seen a lot of san soo types who don’t keep their hands up or over extend their punches, etc))

I’ve brought it up and my instructor was game, so were a lot of students but anytime someone put on the gear they were real gun shy. MMA environment is a good way to get rid of fear. It eliminates like 80% of san soo techniques and I wouldn’t use it except maybe once a month. But it’ll eliminate a lot of hassle.

Two favorite instructor’s (and I’ve met a bunch)… are Bill Lasiter and Raul Ries. Both teach some form of ground fighting. When I trained with Bill, it was mostly cops, bounty hunters, and other security professionals… and I was probably 15-16 at the time.

Best environment to train in ever.

A lot of street fights is who has the advantage… who hits first, hits hardest, or just causes the most damage when they strike.

So much can be said but I’ll just leave it at my endorsement of Kung Fu San Soo

oh and train and fight in a dog brothers tourney just once. You’ll never be scared of shit again in your life lol

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
*i looked it up. Clint’s middle name is, in fact, Motherfucking.[/quote]

I had suspected this for a long time; I’m happy to see it confirmed.

Man must know his limitations.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:

Brass knuckles are easy to obtain and conceal… you can also get the polymer type that don’t go off in security alarms… I’ve yet to test them yet (on a live subject) it doesn’t have the weight (maybe about 60% of the weight though) but it’s nice.if you’re going somewhere put them in your shoes…let them pat u down… go to the bath room and take them out your shoes. Done.[quote]

…Hmm normally the type of person i’ve met who purposely carries a duster with them goes out lookin for trouble. Not to mention the fact, if i was jumped and defended my self with a duster, i know for sure the police would lock me up for assault with an offensive weapon. Not a good form of defence!

One thing that is also inportant is what forms of fighting are taught in your area, and how do people fight in your area, empty hand combat skills are good but if the majority of fighter use knives, that would dictate a different way of fighting,the Kung fu systems that moved to Indonesia had to adapt to the knife culture.
We all have differnt oppinions about my Afgani thumb wrestlings can beat your tiger claw and crap like that but some of the important stuff gets in the way of ego’s, this or that system style is better but,has the teacher ever been in a real knockdown drag it out fight,I dont mean won a tourniment but used what he/she will instruct you in and walked away.
If they have not how can they teach you.
My work has put me in plenty of fights and I always try and get out of them with fighting as only movie hero’s win them all.
what ever you choose to train in train hard and put the effort and you will a better chance of beating the other guy.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
If you’re looking for the best true street self defence, look at Kung Fu San Soo. Most martial arts today are designed to score points in a tournament, KFSS is strictly bad-ass “what if I’m jumped in an alley” self defence. Unfortunatley, there aren’ many schools. If you’re interested PM me, & I’ll try to help you find one near you.[/quote]

Absolutely right!

I’m a long term student of the martial arts and my thoughts for what they are worth are these:

  1. The student and teacher are more important than the art. A bad student will not be a good fighter even with the best art.

  2. Fights are ugly and fast so choose a martial art that is ugly and fast. You can forget spinning kicks to the head. You can forget most armlocks etc. You need something VERY simple and short range.

  3. For self defence don’t bother with an art in which the aim is to end up on the ground. While many fights do end up on the ground you definitely want to avoid this where you can. Nightclubs, alleyways, etc are not places you want to roll around in and aggressors usually have mates who are only to happy kick you in the head when you’re down there. Certainly you omit to learn to fight on the ground at your peril but don’t seek the end up there. I know you often see groundfighting in UFC fights but these are unique in that (a) they take place in padded cages (b) there are only 2 guys allowed in and © (more significant than most people think) both men going into the ring know they are going in there to fight.

  4. Muay Thai is great. Boxing is great. I would avoid karate for a host of reasons. I hope the karateka on this board will forgive me but in general its too complicated, too rigid and doesn’t focus on simultaneous attach and defence. Then again see point 1 above.

  5. Research Wing Chun before you decide on anything else. I personally think its the most street effective art if there is such a thing. In Hong Kong they call it the Gangster Fist and theres a reason for it. Its simple, its direct, it very cleverly designed, it can be learned quickly, size is unimportant, its fast, its realistic, its aggressive (the style I mean, hopefully not the student and teacher) and its discreet (if that’s possible for a fight. If you want to know why this is important try getting in a fight in a bar, club etc and then wait to see how long it is before the other blokes mates/police/bouncers arrive). Then again see point 1 above.

I hope this useful. Any questions, feel free to PM me.

W-o-I

[quote]NC wrote:
If you really want to protect yourself, you should look into Tim Larkin’s Target Focus Training. Do a search for it on the net. Waterbury and Staley speak highly of his program.[/quote]

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461563

I agree with will-of-iron’s opinion of Wing Chun. It can be a viscious system, and it’s pretty easy to learn. There are really just a dozen or so fundamental moves and variations thereof. Look around for a good school, as some of the more progressive one’s will invite practitioners from other styles to spar. Wing Chun is best when you can apply it against a non-wing chun fighter(duh!).

Some people will baulk at this, but size and strength are still your best assets in a fight. I know, we’ve all seen dozens of 130lb BJJ fighters whoop up on 250lb monsters(sarcasm), but in the real world who’s gonna fuck with the monster?

The whole point of this thread is to find out how to best protect your family in a crisis. Your time is best spent getting stronger and avoiding the situations where your family is in jeopardy. Predators prey on the weak, so don’t be.

Unless your taking your family on Sunday strolls through South Central with wads of cash sticking out of your pockets, keep hitting the gym and learn how to connect with a decent punch and you should be alright. It seems like a waste to spend all that time training for a situation that will probably never happen.

Remember, you best weapon is your brain!

You may want to check out a system called Dynamic Combat. I’ve been training in it for almost 7 years, and it works.

www.dynamiccombat.com

It was created by Richard Ryan, and deals with real world, worst case scenario type training.

In the classes there are no “warm ups,” no “breathers,” and no bullshit. It’s just, “straight up, learn to kick ass to defend yourself and your loved ones training.”

I’ve had to use this a few times in the past, and can say it has saved my ass.

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
I agree with will-of-iron’s opinion of Wing Chun. It can be a viscious system, and it’s pretty easy to learn. There are really just a dozen or so fundamental moves and variations thereof. Look around for a good school, as some of the more progressive one’s will invite practitioners from other styles to spar. Wing Chun is best when you can apply it against a non-wing chun fighter(duh!).

Some people will baulk at this, but size and strength are still your best assets in a fight. I know, we’ve all seen dozens of 130lb BJJ fighters whoop up on 250lb monsters(sarcasm), but in the real world who’s gonna fuck with the monster?

The whole point of this thread is to find out how to best protect your family in a crisis. Your time is best spent getting stronger and avoiding the situations where your family is in jeopardy. Predators prey on the weak, so don’t be.

Unless your taking your family on Sunday strolls through South Central with wads of cash sticking out of your pockets, keep hitting the gym and learn how to connect with a decent punch and you should be alright. It seems like a waste to spend all that time training for a situation that will probably never happen.

Remember, you best weapon is your brain![/quote]

AZMOJO

Great advise mate.

U make some very valid points.

I live in a fairly small town 23-25000 thousand people.Mostly weapon free fighting here,odd exeption.
But if i do end up in a fight it will be from some little drunk ass punk wanting me as his trophy(beating a big guy up will make him fell great)never quite understood that? maybe lacking with something in his life? who knows?
So yeah some good boxing lessons plus me rag dolling him should help heaps.
I think the confidence factor plays heaps into this,i notice if i have my head down and shuffling my feet around ill notice punks who might want to have a go at me but if im standing tall with a bit of attitude these same punks say hi and G’day big fella thinkin oh shit i better be nice to him “lol”

Cheers eveyone

HHH

I earned my black belt in a hybrid American karate/kickboxing system six years ago. I have to agree with alot of the folks who suggest boxing as the most bang for the buck for a downright newbie. I think that muay-thai/kickboxing is great for learning important concepts such as timing, distance, and footwork. I personnaly would NEVER want to be on the ground in a streetfight due to the loss of mobility. However what if someone brings you down? train in some groundfighting and BE PREPARED.

But the concept that shouldn’t be lost is the importance of being a student of the fighting arts. I was lucky to have found an instructor who emphasized being as well rounded as one possibly can. He brought in instructors of different arts for seminars and encouraged new ideas. Something traditional arts don’t always embrace.

I think that it’s important to fight/spar as close to full contact as possible. This will develop many of the intangibles that commercial schools will not give you such as developing a warrior spirit, and knowing who you really are under the stress of combat. I really think that the intangibles are very important.

With all that said, any time spent training in a combat art will develop a level of self confidence that will probaly lead you to avoiding the fight altogether. Which is always a win. It just seems to me that experienced fighters are the best at avoiding fights. Wierd huh.

Anyways, find an instructor that you click with and provides a serious training environment. And have fun!

That’s easy Kung Fu San Soo, it will teach you to have confidence and it will aslo show you how to end/orevent a fight as fast as possible

[quote]gonta47 wrote:
No offense but that stuff dosent work if your opponent is alot bigger than you. I’m in law inforcement and have been trained in all that stuff but for the most part it dosent work. A fellow officer is a black belt in judo and he cannot throw me around, he’s tryed I’m 6’4 240 pounds and hes 6’ 180. It just dosent work.

Also when fighting on the street all that ground fighting isn’t going to last long because pavement isn’t a soft mat and even if your on top you knee’s will be hamberger if not need sergery. Sure once you have a arm or rist lock your opponent will relent but good luck getting to that point.
something to think about
God bless

For god’s sake of course it doesn’t work on you!!! you are 6’4’ and 240!!! What percentage of the population is that big? So because it doesn’t work on you because you are genetically gifted it doesn’t work on the majority of the population?

Trust me it does.
[/quote]
See my contention is that if you learn how too deliver quick powerful punches size matters less that Judo type fighting and ground fighting. Yes I believe that arm bars wrist locks throws work for you against a like opponent but as you stated it dosn’t work against much larger opponents. Striking dose. Mike tyson is a good example, he’s really not that big of a guy, yes he’s muscular but with him and other devistating fighters his success comes with striking combined with whats called violence of action.

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:
Ggonta47,

You just haven’t met the right practitioner. I’m also 6’4" 240, and I’ve worked out with a Gracie BJJ practicioner (5’10" 170) who could tie me in knots. My background is 10 years of karate and a little wrestling in high school. We didn’t try for knockouts, but I could hit him at will standing up. However, once he got a grip on me, I wasn’t exactly helpless - but he always managed a submittal.

gonta47 wrote:
No offense but that stuff dosent work if your opponent is alot bigger than you. I’m in law inforcement and have been trained in all that stuff but for the most part it dosent work. A fellow officer is a black belt in judo and he cannot throw me around, he’s tryed I’m 6’4 240 pounds and hes 6’ 180. It just dosent work.

Also when fighting on the street all that ground fighting isn’t going to last long because pavement isn’t a soft mat and even if your on top you knee’s will be hamberger if not need sergery. Sure once you have a arm or rist lock your opponent will relent but good luck getting to that point.
something to think about
God bless

For god’s sake of course it doesn’t work on you!!! you are 6’4’ and 240!!! What percentage of the population is that big? So because it doesn’t work on you because you are genetically gifted it doesn’t work on the majority of the population?

Trust me it does.

[/quote]

Hey thats cool and it’s quite possible that this cat could submit me on the ground too, but as I said before fights don’t happen in the gym on a mat most of the time they are on pavement or some other hard serface. In the past I have trained alongside world class grapplers at Slo kickboxing,{thats Chuck Laddels Gym in San Luis Obispo Ca}
My brother is one of chuck’s sparing partners. Most of the better grapplers are boncers at the local pubs and they get in fights all the time. Quite often they get more injured trying to submit some drunk football jock, eventually the jock calms down after he get’s in an arm bar or whatever after he bashes the crap out of the grappler against the floor. The drunk wakes up the next day with a sore elbow and grappler has 2 black eyes and some bruised ribs. I’m not saying that grappling isn’t someting that you should’nt train on if you want to be a complete fighter but it’s just not very practical in alot of situations on the street.
Just my opinon
God bless

From the fights I’ve seen and one I’ve been in, punches have had little effect. I saw one fight in Boston that went on FOREVER between 2 drunks of the same size, and neither could hurt the other.
Finally, after the 4th or 5th “round” they basically agreed to stop fighting when one of the friends came in and sucker punched one of the 2 guys on the jaw. The effect? Nothing. (The 2 fighters ended up hugging a few moments later!)

My point is that it can be hard, even with training, to develop a hard punch. Better to focus on dirty tactics I’d say.

Oh, and whoever said that your brain is your ultimate weapon, you’re absolutely right. If you know you can hurt someone and you are mentally prepared to attack, that is a huge edge. Being ready to attack violently is a big edge because it eliminates fear, doubt and hesitation.

BTW, I’ve done some MMA and will take it up again OR start doing only Muay Thai, we’ll see.

[quote]Sonny S wrote:
From the fights I’ve seen and one I’ve been in, punches have had little effect. I saw one fight in Boston that went on FOREVER between 2 drunks of the same size, and neither could hurt the other.
Finally, after the 4th or 5th “round” they basically agreed to stop fighting when one of the friends came in and sucker punched one of the 2 guys on the jaw. The effect? Nothing. (The 2 fighters ended up hugging a few moments later!)

My point is that it can be hard, even with training, to develop a hard punch. Better to focus on dirty tactics I’d say.

Oh, and whoever said that your brain is your ultimate weapon, you’re absolutely right. If you know you can hurt someone and you are mentally prepared to attack, that is a huge edge. Being ready to attack violently is a big edge because it eliminates fear, doubt and hesitation.

BTW, I’ve done some MMA and will take it up again OR start doing only Muay Thai, we’ll see.[/quote]

i agree that most untrained people can’t punch, but i’ve literally knocked out every perosn i’ve hit in a street fight (20+ people). maybe i have some abnormally effieienct swing, but i’ve seen some of my friends do the same thing. maybe it’s my repressed “nerd-rage”…i dunno.

[quote]Jeff Parsons wrote: At least karate/ traditional MA teaches you to keep your hands up and throw a strong punch if needed. (I can also do a real push-up thanks to karate, not that floor humping shit you see most people do!)

[/quote]

sadly enough, this hardwires most people to only swing when their hands are up. check otu Tony Blauer’s stuff…he explains this reaction pretty well.

You’ve got a lot of style advise in the above. Some maybe available in your area, others may not. Don’t get hamstrung by trying to find the perfect system or the top recommendation. If choice 1 isn’t offered in your state, skip to style choice #2. If you don’t like the instructor, try someone/somewhere else on your list. Don’t force a less than optimal situation.

When you’re looking at places consider the following:

  1. Bag, pads, mitts and sparing. Fights involve hitting things. If the school doesn’t have you hitting and/or throwing things, you’re probably going to be wasting your time.
  2. Contact. Fights involve contact and live opponents. Get use to it in training.
  3. School mind set. Combative will be more applicable than MA tourney specific. Big difference.
  4. Location and times. If it’s hard to make it twice a week, you’ll find excuses not to go. Consistent quality training is the key to improvement.
  5. The instructor is important but watch the students. Can they apply the theory.

Simple techniques trained hard and often will see you through.

Oh yeah… have some fun along the way!