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Which Program is Right for Me?

This is a better example of safe and effective squat form IMO

[quote]trav123456 wrote:

I don’t think bouncing a weight at any time is really acceptable, it has nothing to do with how long you’ve been lifting. Olympic lifters do it because that’s the way they catch weights in a clean so it transfers well for them, although most don’t do it to the extent shown in that video. To me it’s the same as bouncing off of the chest to me, your muscles aren’t doing all of the work because you’re using momentum to move the weight, and it will most likely cause you to lose tightness in the lift may very well cause an injury at some point…[/quote]

Yes it has a lot to do with how strong you are and how much weight you are squatting…

The lil’ bounce in the back squat is NOT bouncing the bar off your chest when benching. At the bottom of the squat 2 things happens: (1) you explode up really fast, (2) stretch reflex of the muscles kicks in. Thus the lil’ bounce occurs with experienced strong lifters. On guys like me, who have been training OlympicW for 2yrs and are not that strong, you DON’t see a bounce.

The idea of squatting to parallel being safer than squatting ATG is bullshit. If a person cannot squat ATG, have them go as low as they can. If you have them front/back squatting 2-3x a week and stretching then in 3-5weeks they will have full ROM.
-Dan John has a good video on stretching…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744#

The video you showed is a powerlifting style box/back squat. It allows you to lift more weight because it reduces the ROM considerably. It is not “safer” or “better”. It is different. It is a different motion, using different muscle groups (a lot more hamstring & lower back), and requiring less flexibility. PLs do it because parallel is the farthest they have to lift in competition, although the exact point varies slightly depending on the federation. OlymicLs don’t because their sport is about having the leg strength throught the total ROM to throw the weight up overhead, catch it really low, and get back up.

[quote]Neospartan wrote:

[quote]trav123456 wrote:

I don’t think bouncing a weight at any time is really acceptable, it has nothing to do with how long you’ve been lifting. Olympic lifters do it because that’s the way they catch weights in a clean so it transfers well for them, although most don’t do it to the extent shown in that video. To me it’s the same as bouncing off of the chest to me, your muscles aren’t doing all of the work because you’re using momentum to move the weight, and it will most likely cause you to lose tightness in the lift may very well cause an injury at some point…[/quote]

Yes it has a lot to do with how strong you are and how much weight you are squatting…

The lil’ bounce in the back squat is NOT bouncing the bar off your chest when benching. At the bottom of the squat 2 things happens: (1) you explode up really fast, (2) stretch reflex of the muscles kicks in. Thus the lil’ bounce occurs with experienced strong lifters. On guys like me, who have been training OlympicW for 2yrs and are not that strong, you DON’t see a bounce.

The idea of squatting to parallel being safer than squatting ATG is bullshit. If a person cannot squat ATG, have them go as low as they can.
[/quote]

I never said parallel was safer, it’s just that trying to achieve that right off the bat can screw beginners up IF they don’t have the flexibility to so. I think we agree on this point.

What I’m referring to in the video is the level of control in the descent, the video of yourself was much better. Sorry I’m not going to buy that the stronger you get the faster you’re going to drop into the hole. I’m going to estimate that the guy in the first video can probably perform a perfect 600-700lb back squat, he just wanted to see how much weight he could actually move. And yes he bounced his hams off of his calves and his belly off of his thighs just like bouncing on the bench press to achieve that, but that’s what you do in olympic lifts to catch cleans so it transfers anyways.

Here’s me squatting 405, this is about the fastest I think a person should descend into the hole especially on a max attempt irregardless of ROM.


Ideally it would be even more controlled than that. You can see in both of our videos there’s atleast some control in the descent and there’s no bouncing, and that’s what beginners should be trying to do.

[quote]Bradonater wrote:
Ok so I am a skinny fat guy that has been training for 5 months on a 4 day body part bodybuilding split the owner of my gym gave me but as my goal is to get strong I have decided to change my program.

My diet is mostly clean and I have been gaining about a pound a week maybe a little bit less on 3500 calories a day. My lifts have improved but not as fast as I would have liked and as improving them is my goal I figured a high rep bodybuilding split wasn’t the best program to be on.

I was thinking maybe starting strength? However as I’ve already been training for 5 months is a program like this best for me?

[/quote]
If you are skinny-fat I think Starting strength is a bad idea. I would definitely say a body building split is best for you because you want to pack on as much muscle as you can to your entire body.When you call yourself skinny fat I am assuming you have narrow shoulders and skinny arms so you definitely need to do a routine with lateral raises, plenty of direct arm work and a shitload of upper back and lat work.

[quote]trav123456 wrote:

[quote]Neospartan wrote:

[quote]trav123456 wrote:


Ideally it would be even more controlled than that. You can see in both of our videos there’s atleast some control in the descent and there’s no bouncing, and that’s what beginners should be trying to do.[/quote]

meh… to be honest with u… i don’t see Pat Mendez dropping too fast nor bouncing. Nor do I agree with the idea of a bounce makes it considerably easy to ATG squat, it just hasn’t been my experience (which ain’t much)… But whatever, lets move on since we can discuss Pat Mendez squat in another thread.

I do agree that it is not a good idea to drop down too fast.

Also, if a guy is really noob I have them do the Dan John stretches in the first 15mis of the video i liked above. Plus, with a really light weight, go as low as they can in the back squat AND front squat for 8-10reps 4sets. If this noob squats at least 2x a week, and stretches, then he will be flexible enough to go ATG. Plus he will be able to do the 5X3 starting strength squat programs.

The OP is a young guy, and did not mention any knee or back problems. So it won’t take him long to become flexible to squat ATG IF he cannot do it at the present time.

op: just cuz u’ve been lifting for 5 months doesn’t mean u won’t benefit from starting strength 5x5… just in general the program change will allow u to see changes in strength and size. starting strength 5x5 should yield good results. just be sure that diet is in check.

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:
If you are skinny-fat I think Starting strength is a bad idea. I would definitely say a body building split is best for you because you want to pack on as much muscle as you can to your entire body.When you call yourself skinny fat I am assuming you have narrow shoulders and skinny arms so you definitely need to do a routine with lateral raises, plenty of direct arm work and a shitload of upper back and lat work. [/quote]

That was the worst peace of advice I have ever read. OP is still a beginner. He will benefit greatly from Starting Strength. A bodybuilding split won’t produce as good results.

[quote]J.Rex wrote:

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:
If you are skinny-fat I think Starting strength is a bad idea. I would definitely say a body building split is best for you because you want to pack on as much muscle as you can to your entire body.When you call yourself skinny fat I am assuming you have narrow shoulders and skinny arms so you definitely need to do a routine with lateral raises, plenty of direct arm work and a shitload of upper back and lat work. [/quote]

That was the worst peace of advice I have ever read. OP is still a beginner. He will benefit greatly from Starting Strength. A bodybuilding split won’t produce as good results. [/quote]

You must really be a Mark Rippetoe fanboy if you you say me advice is the worst advice you ever read. I Have gotten my deadlift up from 225 to 370 in a few months using a bodybuilding split ( I never used to deadlift). There is no reason why a beginner has to do a program that neglects several muscle groups.

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:

[quote]J.Rex wrote:

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:
If you are skinny-fat I think Starting strength is a bad idea. I would definitely say a body building split is best for you because you want to pack on as much muscle as you can to your entire body.When you call yourself skinny fat I am assuming you have narrow shoulders and skinny arms so you definitely need to do a routine with lateral raises, plenty of direct arm work and a shitload of upper back and lat work. [/quote]

That was the worst peace of advice I have ever read. OP is still a beginner. He will benefit greatly from Starting Strength. A bodybuilding split won’t produce as good results. [/quote]

You must really be a Mark Rippetoe fanboy if you you say me advice is the worst advice you ever read. I Have gotten my deadlift up from 225 to 370 in a few months using a bodybuilding split ( I never used to deadlift). There is no reason why a beginner has to do a program that neglects several muscle groups. [/quote]

because the OP wants to get strong quick…

…any beginner deadlifting once a week with a 5x5, 3x5, and heavy singles (made up) program will reach 315lb or more without a problem in a few months of training. That’s how I did it.

Starting Strength is one of the best and simplest methods to get strong for noobs and intermediates.

Ok thanks for all your help guys. So starting strength would be the better option for me at the current time?

Yes, or a similar program like 5x5

[quote]Bradonater wrote:
Ok thanks for all your help guys. So starting strength would be the better option for me at the current time?[/quote]
Probably, but still some more detailed stats and goals would be helpful. If you go this route, don’t add extra shit in. Follow the program as it is written and give it a chance to work. And make sure you’re eating enough and working on mobility.

I am just starting out as well. Is there any direct arm work at all in starting stregth in the book. I just ordered it…

Any recemedation on a diet on this program for someone 5 foot ten and 200 pounds.

I had just lost thirty pounds using a diet called protien modified and am goin to continue for 4 more weeks (all weight lose being fat primarily).

I dont want to put back on alot of fat.

When i am done with this diet i am going to start starting stregth, jusat not sure what to eat

[quote]A.G wrote:
When i am done with this diet i am going to start starting stregth, jusat not sure what to eat[/quote]
Check out the anabolic diet.

What is your current split, stats for lifts, and stats for you?

Congrats on the results so far btw, keep at it!

Neo, Trav - good videos there guys, both of you are seriously strong. I’ve only learned better squatting form recently. Slow lowering, 4 second tempo (I think trav you did a 3 second tempo on the 405, which is IMHO STRONG!), using plates to elevate the heels and squatting ATG.

OP, I think your first few programs should be from qualified trainers (established programs, good reviews). The bloke at your gym may have all the credentials you need, at that’s great if he does, but do consider some basic programs first (at least for 3 months) before trying something else.

Ok thanks for all your help guys, a couple of people have asked for some more stats so here you go.

Height: 5’10
Age: 15
Bodyweight: 145lbs (up from 121 gained some fat though)
Squat 65lbs to 130lbs
Db bench 22lbs to 34lbs
deadlift 95lbs to 150lbs

I know these are terrible lifts but I am recovering from having an eating disorder and depression most of my life.

Old routine: Monday: Chest

                 Incline bench press
                 Incline fly
                 Flat bench
                 Chest machine flyes
                 Dips

         Tuesday: Back
         
                  Lat pulldown
                  Bentover row
                  One arm rows
                  Pullups
                  Deadlits
                  Reverse machine flyes

         Thursday: Shoulders

                   Seated dumbbell press
                   Side laterals
                   Upright rows
                   Reverse rows

         Saturday: Legs

                   Legpress
                   Squats
                   Leg extension machine
                   DB lunges
                   Leg curl machine

Ok… you got too much unessential stuff here, that ain’t gonna help making you strong.
Things like: Legpress, Leg curl machine, Leg extension machine, Side laterals, Seated Dumbell Press (shoulder press standing not seated), Lat pulldown, Reverse machine flyes, Chest machine flyes, Incline fly…

This is what Starting Strength looks like:

Do that for 6weeks

THEN you can do some changes… like doing StrongLifts 5x5: http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/

(strong lifts)
Workout A
Squat 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Rows 3x12

Workout B
Squat 5x5
Overhead Press 5x5
Deadlift 1x5

Also… I would add a couple of sets of Abz, OR a couple of sets of Chin-up/Pull-ups at the end of every training session.

As the months go by and your body gets used to training you start adding training days. So you start 3x a week, later you bump it to 4x a week, later 5x a week…

[quote]Bradonater wrote:
Ok thanks for all your help guys, a couple of people have asked for some more stats so here you go.

Height: 5’10
Age: 15
Bodyweight: 145lbs (up from 121 gained some fat though)

[/quote]

Starting Strength program will be good. Follow good advice on eating, research Dr John Berardi on this site for his nutrition articles and find out more from his site.

Don’t worry about your current lifts, you’re still developing. Just work hard in the gym mate.