Which Martial Art?

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[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Best. Post.

I was raised around boxing. You can learn every art there is, but landing one good punch will end most fights.

Yep, but at that point why not learn Muay Thai? That way you’ll have your foundation in boxing, and also know how to engage in grappling…which is going to occur in the overwhemling majority of sloppy street fights?
[/quote]

Good point. I’ve trained in boxing and Muay Thai. I did the thai boxing first, but I moved so I couldn’t train there anymore. So I went to a very reputable boxing gym. My hand skills were decent because I had been thai boxing for a while. While I was sparring, I could not believe the things boxers were doing to avoid getting punched. One thing that stands out is that he BENT OVER to avoid a hook. I wanted to just smash the back of his head with an elbow, or rock him with a knee, but we were boxing, so that didn’t happen.

Another time, this boxer was telling me that kicking is useless in a fight, and that a kickboxer couldn’t hang with a boxer. So I asked him if it was ok if I kicked him in the leg the next time we sparred. He said sure. So, we’re sparring, I box with him for a little bit, then I gave him a good one right on the thigh. His hands dropped immediatly so I peppered him in the face with a bunch of fast, low powered punches just to make a point.

Also, hands break very easily. Elbows and knees will not break over someones face. They are much more effective anyway.

I’m not knocking boxing, but in a street confrontation, I would much rather have the arsenal that Muay Thai provides. If a guy grabs my arms, I can still kick and knee my way out.

It just gives you more options to use, while still being easy to execute and be effective.

Also, someone in this thread said Muay Thai was useless up close. Do you know what Muay Thai is? You don’t need distance for muay thai. Kicks, yea, distance is needed. Punches, mid range, but not much distance. Elbows and knees you need about 6 inches from your face to his. If you were any closer, you would be kissing him. You don’t need any distance to throw a devastating elbow man.

22

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
just ask a good bouncer[/quote]

Most people won’t fight back against a bouncer. The same goes for cops.

23

If you had intially made this post, I would not have had any argument against your point. I read your initial post as proclaiming that some given martial art was better for multiple-attacker situations.

In any event, what really got you out of that situation was this: 10% skill and 90% killer instinct. So dont’ give the martial art you happened to be studying at the time of the fight too much credit. ;^)

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
The idea that a martial art can train you to win an encounter with multiple weapon-yielding attackers is probably fantasy for most situations. The idea that a martial art can prepare you to defend yourself, at least long enough to retreat, in a situation with multiple attackers with weapons involved is not at all “fantasy”.
[/quote]

24

[quote]NDM wrote:
While I was sparring, I could not believe the things boxers were doing to avoid getting punched. One thing that stands out is that he BENT OVER to avoid a hook. [/quote]

You were obviously not sparring with a competent boxer. If you knew anything about boxing, you would not have made this “point.”

If by “kickboxer” he meant someone who threw fancy-pants kicks, then he was right. Could a top kickboxer ever have beaten a top boxer? No.

However, a kick to the knee will neutralize anyone - regardless of style. And you don’t need to train MT or be a “kickboxer” to know the knee-kick!

[quote]
Also, hands break very easily. [/quote]

If you are in a street fight, your goal is to surive. Breaking a hand is not a reasonable fear. That you mention this makes me wonder if you have ever been in a real fight.

Actually, a good boxer can keep most street fighters at bay. Distance is a GOOD thing. Keep your distance, and land a couple of power blows. Fight over.

LOL. Okay, I’m done responding to you. It’s obvious you have never been in a real fight. Seriously, you’re worried about a guy grabbing your arms?

25

CaliforniaLaw,

What I was getting at, is that Muay Thai is more street oriented than boxing was. I don’t know why you became so upset with my post. You are probably a boxer who thought I was shit talking your sport. I clearly stated in my post that was not the case.

Now, let’s go over some things…

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

However, a kick to the knee will neutralize anyone - regardless of style. And you don’t need to train MT or be a “kickboxer” to know the knee-kick! [/quote]

So you don’t have to be a decent boxer to throw a good punch either, right? I also said that I kicked him in the thigh, not the knee.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

Actually, a good boxer can keep most street fighters at bay. Distance is a GOOD thing. Keep your distance, and land a couple of power blows. Fight over. [/quote]

A good thai boxer can keep most street fighters even farther away with their legs. I never said distance was a bad thing. I was pointing out that muay thai is effective at all ranges. Not just far away.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

If you are in a street fight, your goal is to surive. Breaking a hand is not a reasonable fear. That you mention this makes me wonder if you have ever been in a real fight. [/quote]

I agree with this. However, if given the choice, I would rather not break my hand and use my elbow. If there was a bottle and a brick on the street and you were in a fight, which one would you pick up?

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

LOL. Okay, I’m done responding to you. It’s obvious you have never been in a real fight. Seriously, you’re worried about a guy grabbing your arms? [/quote]

Personally, I’m not that worried if a guy grabs my arms, because I am comfortable using knees. If I were a boxer, and only knew how to use my hands for punching, I would be worried. If I were a boxer and someone grabbed my arms (my only weapons) how could I effectively attack him? If I had a gun, and someone grabbed a hold of it while it was still in my hands, I would be worried.

I just think that using your legs, knee’s, elbows AND fists would be better than fists alone. You didn’t have to respond in an arrogant manner. There is enough of that floating around. If you want to have a friendly debate, I’m all for that. Maybe the both of us could learn something and gain from it.

26

[quote]blondeguy wrote:
If you’re goal is simply to have some survival skills, you might look into finding a good Krav Maga instructor. There’s usually one or two hiding somewhere nearby and a lot of the times, these schools offer decent fitness classes on the side.

If you’re looking more for sport or an “art”, open the phonebook and start checking places out. The attitude of the teacher, fellow students, and general learning atmosphere will likely be more important than the actual style being taught, so research those aspects well.
Good luck.
-B[/quote]

I like Krav too. I took it for a couple of months before moving cities. One of the nice things about Krav is that pretty much every school has a fight class which lets you get some sparring experience in relatively life-like situations. Additionally, it was designed to be learned quickly, and thus relies on very simple moves.

I think everything depends on the resources in your area. Make sure to try the class out or at least view a class or two before signing any contracts!!!

27

LOL. I never fell into the “reasoning” that because I do/did something, it must be the One True Way.

Instead, I questioned the premises of your argument. I consider your arguments to be misguided. If I broke my hand in a fight, it would be because I smashed my hand into someone’s face. So I think I’d end up coming out ahead.

In any event, the initial poster now has multiple points-of-view to consider. The point of this thread wasn’t for me to “win” an argument. Instead, it was to offer some advice to the intial poster.

Now, the best advice the post could receive is, ala Dan John, this: Write the check (for something, anything!) and show up.

Whether a given art is superior is a moot point when the person sits on his ass theorizing on an online message board. It’s better he take something rather than waste all his time debating the nuances of other arts.

[quote]NDM wrote:
You are probably a boxer who thought I was shit talking your sport.
[/quote]

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I wasn’t being arrogant. I simply said that, based on my reading of your posts, you have never been in a real fightThat’s not arrogant. Why did I conclude that?

You wrote: “Personally, I’m not that worried if a guy grabs my arms, because I am comfortable using knees. If I were a boxer, and only knew how to use my hands for punching, I would be worried.”

Okay, I’ve been in a lot of fights - though none in over 5 years, thankfully. No one ever “grabbed my arms.” I have seen a lot of fights. I have never seen anyone have him arms grabbed. I have no idea why anyone would be worried about having his “arms grabbed” in a fight. It’s perplexing.

Here’s an experiment: Try to grab the arms of one of your boxer’s friends. It aint’ gonna happen. I know that in the movies, Patrick Swayze or whomever can “catch” his attacher’s punches. But that doesn’t happen in a real fight.

Given that I don’t think you’ve ever been in a real fight, I can’t value your opinion on what art works in a fight. The only way to really know is to experience a fight. It’s like taking sex advice from a virgin.

Now, in every fight, I would try to do one of the following: a kick to the knee cap, a kick to the outer thigh, and a couple of powerful punches. IOW, some thai-boxing-like methods.

If the poster could take boxing, thai boxing, and BJJ, I’d say, “Great.” The problem is he doesn’t want to be an MMA fighter or martial artist. He simply wants to be able to handle himself if shit goes down.

I think boxing is the best since it teaches a person how to throw a well-aimed and powerful punch. In addition, it teaches someone how to take a punch. Even if you’re really good, you’re likely to get punched while in a fight. So boxing, moreso than thai boxing, teaches someone how to take a punch.

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[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
LOL. I never fell into the “reasoning” that because I do/did something, it must be the One True Way.

Instead, I questioned the premises of your argument. I consider your arguments to be misguided. If I broke my hand in a fight, it would be because I smashed my hand into someone’s face. So I think I’d end up coming out ahead.

In any event, the initial poster now has multiple points-of-view to consider. The point of this thread wasn’t for me to “win” an argument. Instead, it was to offer some advice to the intial poster.

Now, the best advice the post could receive is, ala Dan John, this: Write the check (for something, anything!) and show up.

Whether a given art is superior is a moot point when the person sits on his ass theorizing on an online message board. It’s better he take something rather than waste all his time debating the nuances of other arts.

NDM wrote:
You are probably a boxer who thought I was shit talking your sport.

[/quote]

This hand thing keeps coming up. If you break it, you can’t really use it again. I’ve seen hands break over peoples heads, and the punch hurt the attacker more than the person receiving it. The skull is very thick and durable, while the hand is fragile. If you punch someone in the face so hard that your hand breaks, you probably are ahead.

I never said MT was the only way, nor did I claim that because I’ve done it, it’s the best. I have training in boxing and MT, and I gave the original poster my experience with the two systems. I just prefer MT. I said it provided the person with more options in a fight. Which IS true. The movements in MT aren’t fancy. They are effective. No flashy kicks here.

I think boxing is great, but I think that MT covers more than boxing does. If someone asked me what martial art to take to defend themself, and they only had 3 months to train, I would suggest boxing. Not MT. It is easier to learn because there are fewer movements. But, if you have more time, I think MT would provide you with a better arsenal for protecting yourself.

With everything else you have said in this post, I couldn’t agree more. It’s better to do something, even if it isn’t the best, than nothing at all. Good post.

30

Well, you’re opinion on my fight experience is, well, arbitrary because you don’t even know me. I could assume that you don’t have any fight experience either. That’s not the point of this thread.

Regarding the arm grabbing…If you’re in a clinch, or pressed up against a wall, it’s very easy for someone to grab onto the sleeve of you’re favorite shirt. It can also be hard to shake them off. In my experience, this has happened. We have a lot of hockey player’s around here that just love to grab onto clothing when they fight. Maybe this doesn’t happen in California, I don’t know…

I don’t think boxing prepares you for a street punch. Getting hit with a glove is much different than getting hit with a clenched fist. You should know that.

Anyway, the original poster now has a lot to think about, and regardless of what he thinks would be the best art, I think we can both agree that he should just choose something and stick with it and train balls to the wall. Agreed?

31

You make fair points. The poster should now have more than enough information to make an informed decision. And, truth is, if you pushed me in a corner, I wouldn’t say any style is necessarily best. There’s a lot more to fighting than the art.

Adrenaline is pumping so hard you start to hear a thumping in your ears. THUMP-THUMP, THUMP-THUMP, THUMP-THUMP. You mouth dries out instantly. Your breaths shorten and you seem able to only fill up half of your lungs.

You feel a twitching sensation on your skin - it feels like a niancin flush or the way your limbs feel “breathless” after a sprint. And then you feel your limbs start to take on a life of their own. You have to control your limbs before they control you.

Then, BOOM!, you zoom in on the person in front of you. You focus has never been so clear. You don’t hear or see anyone else until it’s over.

If you can’t control your adrenaline, you can’t win a fight - period.

[quote]NDM wrote:
With everything else you have said in this post, I couldn’t agree more. It’s better to do something, even if it isn’t the best, than nothing at all. Good post. [/quote]

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You are right. We are getting lost in nuance and overcomplicating things. Btw, and I hope nothing I said seemed like a personal shot at you. This was a very edifying discussion, and I’m glad we had it.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Anyway, the original poster now has a lot to think about, and regardless of what he thinks would be the best art, I think we can both agree that he should just choose something and stick with it and train balls to the wall. Agreed?

[/quote]

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Street Fighting

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The early UFC were “regular” martial artists fighting one another and we all know who was the continual victor with a 50-70 lbs weight DISADVANTAGE.

Todays MMA atheletes put in more time into several different arts which you wouldnt be able to do unless you were a full time fighter.

The Gracies have been in, more than 10 or which other arbitrary number that was thrown out, fights for decades and were only recently beated since hybrid fighters came about.

That should put you on the right track.

35

As was mentioned in the (very good!) discussion above, what works is anything, just so long as it is simple and you get punched in the face doing it.

I can tell you anything and everything you thought worked for you falls apart as soon as they start hitting back.

36

Ninjitsu.
That way you can loose the fight but then sneek into his house that night and cut his shoelaces. Or kill him, but the shoelace thing is more poetic and historic (Gurkhas did it to the British). Furthermore without fully functioning shoes the offender would not be able to gauge his bodyfat accurately. Vengance complete.

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[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
You are right. We are getting lost in nuance and overcomplicating things. Btw, and I hope nothing I said seemed like a personal shot at you. This was a very edifying discussion, and I’m glad we had it.

NDM wrote:
Anyway, the original poster now has a lot to think about, and regardless of what he thinks would be the best art, I think we can both agree that he should just choose something and stick with it and train balls to the wall. Agreed?

[/quote]

LOL, yea, we sure did get carried away. Likewise, I hope I didn’t offend you. And your post on the body’s response to a fight…That was the most accurate description I have ever read. I almost felt it. I don’t know why that hasn’t been discussed before on this site?

Anyway, I’m glad we could both be gentlemen about this, and I am also glad we had this discussion. I learned something from it.

38

Another thing about bjj. Many of the instructors are very cool…if yours isn’t, find another.

Also, If you go do boxing or wrestling they probably won’t teach you any bjj.
However, at almost all of the bjj schools I’ve been to there is some boxing or thai and wresling or judo.
Boxing is very basic technically, there are only a few punches to master, then it’s timing. You will also get punchy training it realistically, long enough. It’s good to learn boxing but I really suggest you try training bjj and LEARN boxing and spar it a bit but the clinch is easy to get on almost anyone, even a boxer, and from there bjj/greco will do you right.

39

go somewhere where you can spar. A lot of styles can be effective, but it takes serious time. Speed is key in fighting. If they can’t hit you, but you can hit them, you win. Over-simplified, but it’s true, isn’t it?

40

True that with the sparring. do stuff like bjj, muay thai, vale tudo, jeet kune do, but make sure you spar. all the practice of techniques and form won’t do you much good if you aren’t conditioned to use it against someone and can’t take a good hit.