T Nation

Where I'm At, Need Help

Hi, i’ve been using suppliments for arount 1 year, but never regularly, constantly on and off, and iv never really had a goal or had enough information to know what to do, after going to the right health food store someone pointed me in the right direction, and told me about this website.

I’v been training 6 days a week for the last 2 weeks and have allmost finished my first batch of protein and carbo suppliments, and im looking for an optimal plan.

I was thinking along the lines of:

Surge: During and post workout, 1 serve (40g) with 1L of water during and then again after workout.

Horsley Ice: as protein shake after dinner.

Breakfast: protein tables, dont know what to get yet.

I dont like having a massive breakfast but and thought i could compensate by having 1/2 a cup of oats and a protien pill.

Apart from that I am overweight, looking at dropping fat but gaining muscle, is this a good plan? what sould i change? any advice would be appreciated thanks.

Also what about cardio? I was told not to do it near weight training, how often should i be doing it each week, and for how long?

my height is 5ft11".
weight is 106kg.

thanks

OK all that is good and well but how is your diet and training aside form the protein supps?? Your going to need to be spto on and CONSISTANT with them above all. The add the supps.

Things like Surge and other protein powders are essentially very optimal food. I like the idea of your Surge servings but how are the other parts of the day eating wise and that training what are you doing

Phill

Through reading diet programs on this website and talking to other “gym junkies” i roughly have addressed my diet to the best i can. I am 18 and am going to Uni at the moment, so the majority of my meals i have to buy, which is good, and bad. Roughly it looks like this:

Breakfast:
1/2 cup of muesli with low fat milk.
2 Tbs of no fat yogurt with fruit(usually passionfruit or peach or something).

Meal #2:
2 raw fish sushi hand rolls, with water.

Lunch: salad with chicken and goats cheese(OR) 6" subway with meat, vegetables, cheese and sauce/

Pre workout: Protien shake, with added Carbos and with water.

Post workout: Same as Pre Workout, with water.

Dinner: Grilled Salmon with salan, raw mushrooms, tomato, avacado, goats cheese, etc. etc.

I cannot stay to this play EXACTLY every day, but if i do change i try to maintain roughly the same basics in the means, eg. low carb, with meat/fish and vegetables.

What should I change there?

How long will I have to stick to a plan like this to start seeing visible results?

I do 45min’s of resistance training 6 days a week with sunday off, and a ‘sanity meal’ for sumday dinner, where/should I include cardio?

Thanks

Hey mate, thought I’d throw in my two cents.

That diet will be fine. I’m sure there are probably a few people on here who could tweak it a little bit extra, but realistically, it is fine as it stands. What you have to focus on is consistency on that diet. There is no point writing out something you can’t manage with uni. That said, I eat a similar (albeit higher cal) diet and I’m at uni too.

And, of course, hit the weights as hard as you can. Every time.

Hope your studies are going well. Best of luck,

-Cloth

cheers cloth,
I should be able to maintain this, im happy with how things are going at the moment and dont regret or miss my old lifestyle, but one thing i was still wondering is what are some good protein tables to use?

I totally disagree with cloth on this one. The actual foods you are eating are in general not too bad, but you are starving yourself. No wonder your body doesn’t want to let go of its fat.

Work out the kcals in what you eat in a normal day. Weigh or guess the quantities, go to fitday.com for the kcal values. Aslo work out what the fat/protein/carb ratio is.

Now guess what. If you were following the Anabolic Diet, your kcal intake should be 18 times your bodyweight in pounds. That is, for you, 4212 kcal a day. That would be your starting level (maintenance). Of that, 60% would come from fat. That means eating 280g of fat a day. I doubt if you are eating much more than 50g of fat a day.

I suggest you check out either the Anabolic Diet (see thread under Supplements and Nutrition Forum) or Berardi’s Massive Eating.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
I totally disagree with cloth on this one. The actual foods you are eating are in general not too bad, but you are starving yourself. No wonder your body doesn’t want to let go of its fat.

Work out the kcals in what you eat in a normal day. Weigh or guess the quantities, go to fitday.com for the kcal values. Aslo work out what the fat/protein/carb ratio is.

Now guess what. If you were following the Anabolic Diet, your kcal intake should be 18 times your bodyweight in pounds. That is, for you, 4212 kcal a day. That would be your starting level (maintenance). Of that, 60% would come from fat. That means eating 280g of fat a day. I doubt if you are eating much more than 50g of fat a day.

I suggest you check out either the Anabolic Diet (see thread under Supplements and Nutrition Forum) or Berardi’s Massive Eating. [/quote]

I’m aware of this as a theory. I’ve never really seen any evidence of it in real life. I also can’t really see any physiological basis for it. Maybe if you consumed those reduced calories with poor timing insulin would not be controlled and cause excess storage as fat. There is also the psychological argument that reducing caloric intake will cause your body to reduce caloric expenditure by stopping unncessary fidgeting etc.

But again, i’ve never seen this in any of my friends or any of the few people in uni who asked me if I could help them lose weight.

OP - don’t overthink it. Just use more calories than you take in. The rest of the tweaking is mostly for preserving as much muscle mass as possible. I doubt you’ll lose that much anyway, you seem to be getting a decent amount of protein.

-Cloth

Sharetrader - I’m always eager to learn if you do know the physiological basis for it - further than the “your body is worried about not getting enough energy so it converts what it does get as fat”. Logical, but like I said, i’ve never experienced this, so it’ll take me a bit more convincing.

PSS Where in Australia are you from - Brisbane here

cheers, Melbourne here.

Thankyou for your input, hopefully i can come to a balance that works for me in due time, at the moment, can you recommend some protein tables? I am having a hard time doing research into the matter, also do you think horsley’s Ice is the best stuff for me?

[quote]hackattack wrote:
cheers, Melbourne here.

Thankyou for your input, hopefully i can come to a balance that works for me in due time, at the moment, can you recommend some protein tables? I am having a hard time doing research into the matter, also do you think horsley’s Ice is the best stuff for me? [/quote]

Am I the only one who doesn’t know what a protein table is?

[quote]Modi wrote:

Am I the only one who doesn’t know what a protein table is?[/quote]

I assumed it was something you bought from GNC at $79.95.

But then I thought about it, and I think he meant protein tablet. And I couldn’t decide if he meant BCAA or, for some reason, protein in tablet form. But I don’t know much about BCAA’s, so I just kept quiet.

-Cloth

[quote]Cloth wrote:
Modi wrote:

Am I the only one who doesn’t know what a protein table is?

I assumed it was something you bought from GNC at $79.95.

But then I thought about it, and I think he meant protein tablet. And I couldn’t decide if he meant BCAA or, for some reason, protein in tablet form. But I don’t know much about BCAA’s, so I just kept quiet.

-Cloth[/quote]

Yeah, that was my first thought too and that it was just a typo, but since I’m sitting here stuck in a snow storm, I had plenty of time to go back and re-read his posts and he mentions protein tables several times.

[quote]"cheers cloth,
I should be able to maintain this, im happy with how things are going at the moment and dont regret or miss my old lifestyle, but one thing i was still wondering is what are some good [i]protein tables[/i] to use? "[/quote]

So, I’m still confused, but at least now I have company.

Here’s my take. I’m in college too right now.

I agree with sharetrader for the main points–you are starving yourself. I would not bother with the anabolic diet right now, for the simple reason that the kinds of food you’re eating right now rock. muesli, raw veggies, etc. Great choices of real food.

BUT

You are starving yourself. Not even close to enough calories. ESPECIALLY because you’re working out 6 days a week. START at 3000 calories a day–that’s less than you think, particularly with how much you weigh.

Monitor your weight once a week (empty stomach, empty bowels, before your daily training). If you’re not losing fat, cut 300 calories off your daily total. When you stall again, do it again. Don’t go below 2100 cal. Rather, stop cutting for a while and re-up your calories. I weigh about 15-20 lb less than you and I’m eating around 4000 calories to maintain my weight.

Supplement wise–I’d really just stick with Surge for during and after workouts and a quality protein powder for supplementing protein (I’d recommend Metabolic Drive, but not on a college kid budget like mine. In this case go for the Optimum Nutrition 10 pound bag from an online source like supplement giant). Supplements are just that–things ADDED to a quality diet.

If you want to get a fish oil supplement, get Flameout from this site. No other supps needed.

Cloth–

There are certain reasons the anabolic diet works. And it works well, for the most part. Tribulus uses it extensively, and has seen absolutely dramatic improvements in his HDL/LDL and blood pressure.

However, the bottom line is, sometimes you just don’t have, or can’t know, the reasons why it works. You just know THAT it works. Science tends to follow behind what people like us and athletes do and show that yes, in fact, we were right.

It lags behind too much to be a pubmed ninja about every stupid little thing a contrib/author/coach says that you think is weird. That’s why people who sharpen the edge of the knife in training/nutrition are generally making educated guesses based on science. Then figuring out if it works for them.

That’s not to say, of course, that you let yourself be led around by every snake oil salesman or “advertorial” in the muscle mags or even established coaches. You need to think and reason for yourself and then listen to experienced trainees who’ve tried it.

I’m sure you already knew that, but that’s why I inevitably allow some crazy theories that coaches such as Poliquin have to make their way into my lifestyle at some point. He’s been right more times that he’s been wrong, etc. etc.

.02

Oh yeah, cardio–

It’s not the best idea to do it before weight training because it tires you out and depletes your glycogen stores, which are the primary fuel for most weight lifting. According to Thomas Kurz’s “The Science of Sports Training” the general progression is–

mobility warm-up–>speed work–> strength work–> strength-endurance work (muscle hypertrophy/bodybuilding style stuff) --> endurance work–>cool down and stretching,or more mobility stuff.

There are exceptions of course, based on an individual’s experience level, goals, and weak points. But that’s the general template or idea.

Best case is if you have 4-8 hours between cardio and weights (or one in the morning, the other in evening). But it’s not always possible to do that, esp. for us college people and for full-time workers or shift workers. So, follow Kurz and do your cardio at the end of your weights, or on a separate day.

Btw, that book is AMAZING. Get it, read it, love it. There’s no chance that you understand everything he says, and as a book it’s inevitably old information (some of which has been contradicted by other really great coaches). But it’s a good reference to start your learning with. After you read some more here and other places you’ll go back to the book and you’ll get more of it.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Cloth–

There are certain reasons the anabolic diet works. And it works well, for the most part. Tribulus uses it extensively, and has seen absolutely dramatic improvements in his HDL/LDL and blood pressure.

However, the bottom line is, sometimes you just don’t have, or can’t know, the reasons why it works. You just know THAT it works. Science tends to follow behind what people like us and athletes do and show that yes, in fact, we were right.

It lags behind too much to be a pubmed ninja about every stupid little thing a contrib/author/coach says that you think is weird. That’s why people who sharpen the edge of the knife in training/nutrition are generally making educated guesses based on science. Then figuring out if it works for them.

That’s not to say, of course, that you let yourself be led around by every snake oil salesman or “advertorial” in the muscle mags or even established coaches. You need to think and reason for yourself and then listen to experienced trainees who’ve tried it.

I’m sure you already knew that, but that’s why I inevitably allow some crazy theories that coaches such as Poliquin have to make their way into my lifestyle at some point. He’s been right more times that he’s been wrong, etc. etc.

.02[/quote]

Whoa, I think i’ve misrepresented myself. I’m not saying the AD wouldn’t work. I just don’t agree that what he has would not work.

I have no problems with the AD.

-Cloth

Thankyou all for replying,

When I said protein tablet, I was searching for a non-existant product. sorry for the confusion.

But this brings me to a new question, what should I take with breakfast to give me the protein I need? I have been told that I should go for a protein powder (wpi, with high concentrate of fat and carbs) and I have been told I should go for a protein powder (not wpi, “perfect Protein”, with low far and carbs).
I recently bought some Horleys Ice, should just have this with water in the Morings? What do you think I should have with breakfast for added protein?

I went to fitday.com, awesome website. My rough diet is around 2300cals with
Fat: 59G 25%
Carbs: 273G 46%
Protein 161G 30%

how does that look?
this is a rough estimate but its in the ballpark.

Today I ate:

breakfast: 1/2 cup museli with skim milk.

11:00: tuna sushi roll

Lunch: 6" chicken pieces subway, with salad cheese and sauce.

Pre workout: 50:50 Protein:glucose drink.

----45 mins resistance training-----

Post workout: same as pre workout

Dinner: 200G tuna

----35 mins Cardio training----

Supper(8:00pm): Protein shake with milk, banana, yogurt.

How is that looking? Do I need to eat more?

What about fat burning tables? How would this effect my results/routien?

Thanks so much for all the replys.

Hackattack

[quote]Cloth wrote:

Whoa, I think i’ve misrepresented myself. I’m not saying the AD wouldn’t work. I just don’t agree that what he has would not work.

I have no problems with the AD.

-Cloth[/quote]

Oh. Never mind :slight_smile:

hack,

Your macro ratios look ok for now. But here’s another question–what is your body fat %?

You weigh about 230. If you have anything less than about…say 35% bodyfat, you need to be eating more.

See my first post above. Start around 3000/day.

Secondly, what does your training look like? You need a plan, and you need to write it down here so people can help you. My suspicion is that you’ve got some problems with your training as well. You might be shooting yourself in the foot there as far as fat loss goes.

You need a goal to train for.

Finally, what is your fascination with supplements? You need to eat more real, healthy food, not powders. For breakfast, try adding omega 3 eggs. Or an omellete with spinach. getting more protein = either eating more eggs, drinking more milk, or getting another chicken breast or lean beef patty somewhere in the day.

[quote]Cloth wrote:

Sharetrader - I’m always eager to learn if you do know the physiological basis for it - further than the “your body is worried about not getting enough energy so it converts what it does get as fat”. Logical, but like I said, i’ve never experienced this, so it’ll take me a bit more convincing.

PSS Where in Australia are you from - Brisbane here[/quote]

Hi, I’m in Canberra, but have family in Bris.

The Anabolic Diet thing is a bit complicated to go into a lot of detail here. Basically, having a low carb, high fat diet during the week affects the levels of a whole host of enzymes and hormones, such as leptin, ghrelin, testosterone, insulin. The net result is to promote lipolysis (fat burning). Then on the weekend, the carbs are increased and fat reduced. This makes use of the phenomenon that insulin’s effects on muscle cell anabolism and fat cell anabolism work to different time frames. Insulin is a hugely anabolic hormone, but unfortunately if it is chronically elevated or subject to very frequent spikes, it ends up mostly building fat.

The weekend carbup is thus cut off before the fat building has a chance to get started, but after insulin has had a chance to work its anabolic changes on muscle cells.

The other advantage of the weekend carbup is that it replenishes muscle glycogen stores. If these are chronically depleted, strength suffers.

The Anabolic Diet has an adaptation phase, during which you become fully adapted to fat burning. After this, you can reduce dietary fat to quite low levels, while keeping carbs low and protein high, to induce burning of body fat.

BTW, the AD is not the only carb cycling approach around. Both Poliquin and Thibaudeau are advocates of it. So is Berardi in a way (advocates most carbs be consumed in a narrow window related to training sessions). So it is rapidly becoming mainstream thinking, in elite training circles at least.

i would agree with around 35% body fat. In terms of training i am doing weights 6 says a week (45min sessions) and am now incorporating 30 mins of cardio 6 days a week as well.

my resistance training is as following.

Sunday: no training.

Monday: biceps, forearms, shoulders.

Tuesday: chest, tri’s.

Wednesday: back, biceps.

Thursday: Legs.

Friday: Abs.

Saturday: chest, tri’s.

Is this what you wanted?

as for my eating for today.

Breakfast(7:30): 1/2 cup muesli, skim milk, 40g protein powder.

10:30 am: chicken, hard boiled egg, raw carrots.

pre workout: protein shake

-----45 mins resistance training------

post workout: same as pre

Lunch(1:00): 6" subway with chicken, cheese, lettuce, pickles, onion and sauce.

3:00 pm: tuna sushi roll

Dinner(6:00): chicken with salad, avacado, goats cheese and tomato.

-----30 mins cardio-------

Supper(8:00): protein shake with banana skim milk and no fat yogurt.

(with the additional carrot thrown in here and there)

Do you think i still need to eat more? if so what? like more meats? etc, etc…

i am seeing results, and will see more i imagine if i just simply stick to this routine, but… I’m pretty sure I can do better, especially if I want to loose more fat, would diet pills work?

Thanks
Hackattack