T Nation

Where Have the Good Men Gone?


What's with the [sic] there?


I didn't say H4M was a prick or that all of the men and women in the military are pricks. From what i have read of H4M, he seems like a genuinely nice, down to earth guy. Some of the best men and women in the world are in our military. No doubt about that. But the armed forces are also full of a bunch of arrogant, hot heads, no?


Means errors are not on my part. I didn't change them.


Yeah i understand what you're saying. Like i said in my other post, some people may find college more difficult than manual labor and vice-versa. It really comes down to the person. And when i am talking about manual labor, i don't mean anything extreme. Examples could be landscaping, construction etc. (NOT "the deadliest catch" hah)

Also, how do we define lazy? I know plenty of people that bitch and moan about all of the schoolwork they have to do but they get it done and do VERY well in they're classes. Then I know others who don't whine or complain about anything but just do not put in the effot to do well in school despite the fact that they want/need to, to attain their goals.


No, I think confidence and brave have been replaced with words arrogant and hot headed. My fathers were confident and brave for going to the different wars since before the Civil War, but my friends and I are arrogant and hot heads for the same thing. I didn't go into the military but I'm still classified as arrogant and hot headed because I box and mountain climb and I don't walk around like someone just cut off my nut sack.


I'm not in the marine corps so i wouldn't know what attitude is necessary to be successful, but if that arrogant Alpha Male personality is what it takes, then I'm fine with that because it is maintaining our freedom.


There is such a huge difference between confidence and arrogance though. I'll give some examples of 2 of the marines I know. 1 of them is out of the marine corps now, but was infantry during his time and served two tours to iraq. One of the greates guys i know. He exudes confidence and you can see that. He isn't cocky or arrogant though. Some of the things he has gone through most of us couldn't even imagine, like seeing his best friends head get blown off. Then we have marine number 2. This guy is in supply, so basically he has a desk job. One of the most arrogant and cocky sob's i have ever met. He treats others like shit, as if he is superior to everyone else around him. I feel like this is one of my pet peeves. I really can't stand people that think they are better than everyone else. We are all created/born equal on this planet and therefore we should behave that way. Just my 2 cents though


This article is retarded.

It seems to be making two points:

1) Guys in their 20s are more immature
2) Marriage is happening later

1) is a very one sided and incredibly stupid point. I could say that girls have gotten continuously sluttier, as way back when getting married also meant giving up your virginity. Should I argue that? Well fuck no, that'd be stupid. Freedoms have changed, and for men, in this case, it's both pressure and monetary. They have easier lives- they're not going to starve to death if they don't work 12 hour days, and they're not expected to marry young, and there isn't nearly as much pressure to at 14 as there was back then.

We have free time. We can actually have hobbies nowadays, we're not forced into the factory at 13. Should we stop liking Star Wars, considered one of the greatest epics of our time, because we're older? Stop playing video games? Hey, let's stop playing sports, watching TV, and reading books for entertainment. That's clearly immature. And god forbid we do any of those things with the friends we've been hanging out with our whole lives, and had the same hobbies with growing up! Let's stop weight lifting, that's stupid and pointless. We should just fill our leisure time with work and nothing but it. I mean hell, that's what girls do. No friends, only focused on work and being good moms.

The environment your dad grew up in and the environment you grew up in are entirely different. If I want to make a lot of money, I'm getting a graduate's degree and I'm in college until around 25, long past when my brain stopped maturing at 21. No shit I'm going to be different. Society has entirely different expectations of men. And the article seems only to address men, ignoring the change in women entirely- and fuck you if you don't think women have changed- using the most ridiculous stereotypes I've ever seen. Where have the good women gone?

2) Talks about how bad it is that marriage is happening later, as guys are now avoiding marriage because they're incredibly immature. Really? It takes a man and a women to get married in a straight relationship, so the numbers should be roughly the same for both men and women unless lesbianism is suddenly becoming a standard in the female population. Why is this mentioned only as men avoiding marriage? And with divorce rates as they are, why is this a bad thing? They should be waiting until they're out of college and have financial security before getting married, not just doing it in college when they aren't working full time (or maybe they do work full time and go to school part time, in which case, where the fuck are they going to find time to manage a relationship?) And because there are so many possible mates, as the article addresses, how the fuck are we supposed to just pick one young anyway?

Guys are softer because they grew up in an entirely different environment that doesn't treat them like adults until their brain has matured. Of course they're going to be different. They have more leisure time, more hobbies, more financial stability, and grow up with entirely different expectations about the way they should run their lives. But this isn't just a guy thing. The only statistics that I can remember were about marriage, and that takes two people, not one.

What I hate most is the way it talks down about men having any kind of fun whatsoever. "Video games? Immature. Star Wars? Immature. Friends? Immature. Beer? Immature. Playboy? Immature. Boxing? Immature." They should want nothing more than to be dads and nothing else should play any part of their lives. For fucks sake. So girls don't watch TV or play videogames? God damn, I didn't know Glee was such a manly show. Or the climbing number of female players in videogames, must be a mistake right. No girl has ever seen or still likes Star Wars, and guys suck for liking boxing but god damn a woman is the pinnacle of maturity for wanting to watch a fashion show or go to the spa, because methods of relaxation should be categorized in some tier of maturity where everything most guys like is on the bottom. Videogames aren't even MADE for adults, that M rating means "Mostly for Children."

For fucks sake. The gender bias is ridiculous.


This is something I have noticed, for example, a group of 25+ year olds all sitting round a playstation on some shit football game or something and I have to say I fucking hate to see this. I always thought that once you were no longer a virgin and had actually had sex with a real woman you no longer did stuff like this. It's not that I have a problem with computer games per se, or even people playing them, just when there's a group of supposedly "men" doing it all afternoon, this becomes something different and I get this weird feeling, somewhere between being disgusted with them for dragging my gender down and with myself for being the same gender as these losers.

And with the star wars film thing, I don't think there's anything wrong with watching the films, but if somebody spent all of their time talking about them, then that would ring alarm bells and tell me to avoid getting stuck in their company at any kind of gathering.

But that's just me, I could be wrong, major tragedy if I am....


Yeah, I know what it means. I just don't see what's wrong with "There are...".


you're absolutely spot on about the two types of marines that are out there. i think it all comes down to how much you feel you have to prove. Your infantry friend didn't need to brag, or be cocky or aggressive because he had likely looked death in the eye and had not blinked. Your other friend had likely never had the chance to, and so he has to make himself look tough out of his own insecurities. This is a broad generalization but most people that have experienced combat are humble, grateful, quiet men afterwards. they also can't be intimidated. they're also full blown alcoholics.


There is a difference between being immature and not taking yourself seriously all the time. I think that each generation seems to take themselves less and less serious all the time - i.e. the less serious they take themselves the more of a sense of humor they have. It could just be that I can't really connect with the older generations but they just don't seem to laugh and have a good time all that much.

People in the mid-20's to mid-30's grew up with videogames, and they became socially acceptable hobbies as they grew up. Videogames were for nerds and kids when they first came out but now don't have that social stigma. Same with Star Wars and other sci-fi stuff, comic books, ect, that stuff was for nerds and kids when the first came out, well the kids are now grown-ups.

How is my friends and I sitting around playing Madden or Halo any different than my dad and his friends sitting around watching football? While some people's only hobby is video games/comic books/sci-fi movies, I think the majority of people on this site who talk about such things prove that we are not all pizza faced 30 year old mom's basement dwellers who do nothing else in life. Playing video games has never impeded my ability to get laid.

As far as the marriage thing - I think it's because women are not dependent on men like they used to be. Women don't need a man to provide food and shelter for them, so men can wait until later on to get married knowing that all the good women won't be taken if they do wait. Plus there is the whole sexual revolution thing - women and men can have sex without being married and it's now socially acceptable. I'm pretty sure if my great grandparents were alive they would probably say I am "living in sin" by living with my girlfriend (my grandparents probably think it but don't say it to me).


Who cares what some bull dyke thinks anyways?


<--- Look at the shit I draw for a living. Damn right I'm still child-like at 48 and I don't care what any reports say about men today. I'm responsible and mature when I have to be, I'm a good dad, a good husband of 25 years, and I work hard. Otherwise I'm having fun.


What a total crock of shit.



Someone else has got to know what I'm talking about here, but I remember reading an article published fairly recently that basically talks about how every generation (as it gets older) has the inherent belief that their generation is truly better than the one that follows it. Something evolutionary-related.

Anyone help me out here?


I can't help you out with a specific article reference, but I heard this at a dinner table conversation like a month ago or so.




complaining like bitches aint gonna do shit

be your own man

you are really where it begins and ends

compare you to yourself

mind your own business


wait, wait, wait, men are living their lives as they see fit, which shockingly enough might not involve getting married and having kids by the age of 25*GASP!*.

And I don't think the author ever considered the fact that maybe men arn't buckling down with a single women that fast because the DIVORCE RATE IS SKYROCKETING as people continue to make UNWISE DECISIONS ABOUT MARRIAGE (getting married in their early-mid 20's). With the fact that so many people get married and divorced years later it proves to me that getting married doesn't make you any more mature, it just changes the perception that you are more mature. Also the author never considered the fact that maybe women are becoming less desirable as they become more needy and fatter.

So this article appears to be completely un-biased. Pretty much just a cry/whine article by the author who is probably blaming men for personal problems.

Author needs to stop crying so much.