Rockscar, fair enough, I respect your opinion and I pose this question to you in all seriousness. If when they time came to liberate Iraq or if say they needed you tomorrow, not your cousin, but you would you pull up stakes leave your wife and kids and go.
I can already hear rainjack and others screaming bloody murder about “there he goes again with have you served” but to me it stands to be answered. It’s easy to call people liberal pussies from the comfort of your easychair.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
It’s easy to call people liberal pussies from the comfort of your easychair.
[/quote]
True words. It is also ridiculous to assume that all soldiers agree with this war simply because they will die before they abort their obligation.
KevinKovach wrote:
"I might be the closest thing to a liberal on this site (well except for Lumpy), but I think of myself more as a person who thinks things out instead of going with the party platform.
Well anyway, my whole objection to the war is basically because I think we are going after the wrong people. Bin Laden isn’t in Iraq, Africa is the biggest shithole on earth, North Korea has Nukes. Lets fuck them up first. But I do like the idea of having military bases around Iran."
Kevin. Excellent post.
I want to repeat: Excellent post.
That is the sort of style that would allow reasonable discussion.
I like how you stated your concerns and allowed that there might be positives that come out of it.
Brother E, to his credit, did this yesterday as well.
If we all (me included) admit that we are keeping an open mind about issues, I’ll bet we could have much more informative discussions.
JeffR
I think the war was justified but I think it was a mitake to invade Iraq before finding Bin Laden. I would like to have seen that happen first. Do we have the resources to do both, I don’t know? Bin Laden should have been priority #1.
Also, if we are going to try to stand up for human rights all over the world, what about China? They are the biggest violators of human rights in the world but I don’t see us invading them. In fact, I see lots of trading going on. Doesn’t make since to me.
[quote]dukefan4ever wrote:
I think the war was justified but I think it was a mitake to invade Iraq before finding Bin Laden. I would like to have seen that happen first. Do we have the resources to do both, I don’t know? Bin Laden should have been priority #1.
Also, if we are going to try to stand up for human rights all over the world, what about China? They are the biggest violators of human rights in the world but I don’t see us invading them. In fact, I see lots of trading going on. Doesn’t make since to me.[/quote]
As far as whether we have the resources, we don’t have the resources as it is. The statement about China could also include Africa, yet we claim this was mostly to free the Iraqi people. I don’t understand anyone who falls for that. We are at war over WMD’s…that weren’t found. Saving Iraq has the purpose of saving face and promoting a positive result out of a negative situation.
[quote]KevinKovach wrote:
I might be the closest thing to a liberal on this site (well except for Lumpy
Well anyway, my whole objection to the war is basically because I think we are going after the wrong people. Bin Laden isn’t in Iraq, Africa is the biggest shithole on earth, North Korea has Nukes. [/quote]
Ditto, dude
[quote]Professor X wrote:
We are at war over WMD’s…that weren’t found.
[/quote]
Well put.
I don’t know whether to laugh, or cry.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
dukefan4ever wrote:
I think the war was justified but I think it was a mitake to invade Iraq before finding Bin Laden. I would like to have seen that happen first. Do we have the resources to do both, I don’t know? Bin Laden should have been priority #1.
Also, if we are going to try to stand up for human rights all over the world, what about China? They are the biggest violators of human rights in the world but I don’t see us invading them. In fact, I see lots of trading going on. Doesn’t make since to me.
As far as whether we have the resources, we don’t have the resources as it is. The statement about China could also include Africa, yet we claim this was mostly to free the Iraqi people. I don’t understand anyone who falls for that. We are at war over WMD’s…that weren’t found. Saving Iraq has the purpose of saving face and promoting a positive result out of a negative situation.
[/quote]
We went in to get rid of a threat and Saddam was a threat to us and had proved it before. The UN blocked our initiative through France, Germany and Russia (Through Iraq influence) so we had to do it. They DID have WMD. We are not saving a people as you state, we are protecting our interests. We are standing for and proving we are serious.
Now we have proven the threat through the Iraq insurgency. I think Iraq is the perfect stage to eradicate parts of Al Queida. As a matter of fact these terrorists in Iraq are now proving they are a threat to the Iraqi people. We are there maintaining THEIR protection.
Our goal was to oust Saddam and put in a government for the PEOPLE. We have done both.
Iraq does not want our presence gone as they know the terrorists will take control. What are we to do. Quit our initiative?? Do we turn heal and run and prove we are failing in our position of being a zero tolerance democratic superpower?? What then? Then we must wait for another larger attack in our own country and go through this all over again.
It is known terrorism is tolerated and in some cases sponsored by Arab countries and they can operate more freely there rather than here.
I say bring it on, terrorists please come to Iraq and meet your fate.
As for the WMD…they did a clever hiding job and used that as political fire for their positions which Liberals are so eager to echo…
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
We are at war over WMD’s…that weren’t found.
Well put.
I don’t know whether to laugh, or cry.
[/quote]
Just cry dude.
Rockscar,
Good stuff. Welcome to the forum!!!
JeffR
We went in to get rid of a threat and Saddam was a threat to us and had proved it before. The UN blocked our initiative through France, Germany and Russia (Through Iraq influence) so we had to do it. They DID have WMD. We are not saving a people as you state, we are protecting our interests. We are standing for and proving we are serious.
I read on a recent thread about the NBA championships where someone got their panties in a twist for another person saying “we” about their team the Spurs playing. He asked the poster what position he played.
I will pose this to you rockscar, what position are you playing in Iraq? Squad leader, point man, rear security?
Since you are saying we… what did you do ?
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
We went in to get rid of a threat and Saddam was a threat to us and had proved it before. The UN blocked our initiative through France, Germany and Russia (Through Iraq influence) so we had to do it. They DID have WMD. We are not saving a people as you state, we are protecting our interests. We are standing for and proving we are serious.
[/quote]
Great post!!!
Welcome to the site Rockstar.
A few thoughts…
These other reasons are just as important, and I think that Bush erred only insofar as he pushed WMDs as hard as he did at the exclusion of reminding the country and world that there were other good reasons.
But also, consider who Bush was seeling his case to.
The UN continues to pile up failed objectives as fast as bodies collect in Darfur. In a post-9/11 world, leaving international security to the UN - supposedly a democratic approach to international affairs run by unelected bureaucrats and undemocratic nations - was unacceptable.
It wasn’t about the oil. Critics can’t quite agree - was it for cheaper oil or to raise oil prices? Conspiracies aside, oil is an important factor in the area - anyone think the Saudis are looking forward to seeing a democratic Iraq sitting on the kind of reserves they have there?
The human rights argument - the “there are so many human rights abusers in the world…shouldn’t we have to go after them too?” - misses the point. There is no logical nexus that says “since I can’t save all, I must therefore save none”. In fact, more realistically, one would hope for a domino effect, in that overwhelming power might create a few more regime changes across the world, as tyrants quake in their boots. Will it happen? Who knows for sure, but the idea that was wrong to invade Iraq because a China exists is erroneous.
Whining because there was no utopian solution is no way to govern geopolitical affairs. Critics can squeal to the high heavens - but they can’t provide a plausible alternative to dealing with the situation in Iraq. The games nations play don’t change and sniffing “can’t we all just get along?” is not serious policy.
US efforts post-9/11 have done more for the Middle East than have all the combined efforts - if you can call it that - of the Arab League and the UN combined.
Elk,
“I will pose this to you rockscar, what position are you playing in Iraq? Squad leader, point man, rear security?”
We have a professional military, Elk - I figured a man who served knew how it worked. Guess I was mistaken.
“Since you are saying we… what did you do ?”
The US military is an arm of the US government - one that I fund through my taxes and whose ultimate policy is determined by my participation in the political process.
By the way, Elk - was Bill Clinton your President? Did you serve your country?
Yes, Bill Clinton was my President.
Yes, I served my country in the USN Feb. 89 thru Feb. 93. My classification was Intelligence Specialist. I was an imagery interpreter and plotted numerous targets in Kuwait and Iraq during the first Gulf War that were summarily bombed to shit.
Upon being honorabley discharged, I joined the Colorado Army National Gaurd and served there for two years and also was honorabley discharged.
Would you care to see copies of my DD214’s?
Hold on…we are all Americans…those in the US…we are all on the same team. It does not matter who served and who did not. If you served it does not make you justification any better or worse.
I highly admire anyone who is in the service. I only provide technology to Homeland Security and software applications to the parts of the National Guard and Marines which is nothing compared to serving inside. But I do know my software SAVES LIVES so I’m doing my part.
I guess I’d classify myself as remote technical support to the war. I don’t think I’m any better, and don’t fret over the “we”. I’m glad you returned from the war safe so you can continue to share your views and enjoy this country for all it is. I’m also proud you were one who stood up and went out to defend our country and lives.
Cool, I hear you bro. I can respect the fact that we are all diverse and will have differing view’s.
Peace
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Yes, Bill Clinton was my President.
[/quote]
Ohh I would not say that.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
Wetdrmscap,
Nice name!!!
I appreciate your recent posts.
I must correct you on something, this is most definetly NOT a liberal site.
The name “Testosterone” should be a dead give-away that more people are going to be Conservative.
Think on it. When under the bar, you succeed or fail based on you and you alone.
If you miss it, you miss it. You can’t blame W., your absent father, society, prejudice, or call out 10,000 lawyers (I love you BB) to change the result.
Therefore, most of us on this forum are into things like personal responsibility.
Conservative!!!
JeffR[/quote]
So because I lift and I lift heavy–I am a republican–shoot me now. This is th most bogus post ever. Don’t believe that taking responsibility for oneself makes them conservative–it makes them a man. Testosterone does not make one conservative it makes one a man.
[quote]JeffR
So because I lift and I lift heavy–I am a republican–shoot me now. This is th most bogus post ever. Don’t believe that taking responsibility for oneself makes them conservative–it makes them a man. Testosterone does not make one conservative it makes one a man. [/quote]
I agree with you. Many Conservatives beleive that the “Give it Away” and “I deserve Welfare and Benefits” is directly attached to Liberal views on economic family relief and healthcare. This is true. But yes, responsible Liberals are all around us…Damn