When to End Bulk?

Chobbs, this is the article Wendler wrote that you’re talking about.

Just keep growing OP.

Personally, I think you would benefit from some higher volume work too though. Maybe 5/3/1 for your main lifts then some higher volume work for your assistance lifts? Just a thought. But like others already stated, at your age you will grow from any program as long as the intensity and proper nutrition are present.

216 lbs isn’t too heavy at all for someone your height. You definitely have room to add some more mass before actually getting fat lol. Did you have a specific number, scale wise, that you were trying to hit?

Eventually though, it would be wise to trim off the fat and get to a lower bf. Then, with that leaner base, you can begin to gain again. Bulking from 10-12% and gaining say…5% bf from the bulk is not nearly as bad as bulking from 15%+ and gaining 5% bf lol.

All in all though, keep up the good work and keep focused on your goals.

We all had to start somewhere.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Chobbs, this is the article Wendler wrote that you’re talking about.

You read my mind, sorry for callin you out. Why does he change what he says?

Thanks for the input guys. I’m excited to continue my bulk but I have to figure out my back first. I’ve been resting it for 3 weeks and yesterday I bent over to put my shoe on and it hurts again. I mean wtf. I’m dying to get my squat back for 6 months and now I need my Deadlift back…

I think you are doing fine.

I also think another 20ish lbs spread out over a year or so will do you wonders.

I was going to say you really need to focus on your legs but I just read you have an injury. If you can find anything that doesn’t give your back issues just pump up the volume and kill it. Like maybe front squats, leg press, leg extresions and hamstring curls.

I didn’t read about your specific back injury but if you have one and it’s impeding you the last thing I would worry about is strength and powerlifting routines.

Lighter weight and volume on a bodybuilding split my friend.

I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

[/quote]

srsly? that’s pretty cool.

Chobbs, Wendler that article is just a 3 month challenge, it’s not meant to be done for every 5 3 1 cycle. It makes the program more hypertrophy-oriented.

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:
Yeah thats me just this past week. They’re all from this past week. Yeah I mean its hard to argue my point against theirs cause they look much more impressive than me.[/quote]

Everyone is different. All of the people who told me the same thing when I started are now way smaller than me. No joke. You have to listen to your own body and frankly, if the muscle and strength gains are coming, it is up to you how much “damage” you allow your body to take as far as body fat.

I personally would definitely keep it in check at times you start to notice you are getting sluggish or times when ou really start to notice that extra fat coming on.

It is times like this that at least being leaner helps you keep tabs on how much fat you are gaining. For instance, I now know the areas I start to gain fat on first. Because everyone is different here, you will only know through experience if your chest starts to gain more fat after your arms or whatever…but it loses and gains fat generally the same over the course of your training.

If I lose all hint of any oblique muscles…I might want to throw the breaks on…or maybe later when I notice more fat around other problem areas.

Avoid getting so fat that it takes huge effort to get off. If you have a fast metabolism, you can obviously get away with more than others.

but as far as what those other guys say…unless they are you, they can’t possibly know what will allow you to make more progress in the long run.

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I think you are doing fine.

I also think another 20ish lbs spread out over a year or so will do you wonders.

I was going to say you really need to focus on your legs but I just read you have an injury. If you can find anything that doesn’t give your back issues just pump up the volume and kill it. Like maybe front squats, leg press, leg extresions and hamstring curls.

I didn’t read about your specific back injury but if you have one and it’s impeding you the last thing I would worry about is strength and powerlifting routines.

Lighter weight and volume on a bodybuilding split my friend.

I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

Ah, this clears things up. I didn’t read that, but I was going to suggest back and legs needed work. Arms look good though. Keep at it man, you will keep making gains. Consider taking a GDA with your starchy carb meals. The addition of a GDA has really helped me lean out during my recomp.

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I think you are doing fine.

I also think another 20ish lbs spread out over a year or so will do you wonders.

I was going to say you really need to focus on your legs but I just read you have an injury. If you can find anything that doesn’t give your back issues just pump up the volume and kill it. Like maybe front squats, leg press, leg extresions and hamstring curls.

I didn’t read about your specific back injury but if you have one and it’s impeding you the last thing I would worry about is strength and powerlifting routines.

Lighter weight and volume on a bodybuilding split my friend.

I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

Ah, this clears things up. I didn’t read that, but I was going to suggest back and legs needed work. Arms look good though. Keep at it man, you will keep making gains. Consider taking a GDA with your starchy carb meals. The addition of a GDA has really helped me lean out during my recomp. [/quote]

can you recommend one?

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I think you are doing fine.

I also think another 20ish lbs spread out over a year or so will do you wonders.

I was going to say you really need to focus on your legs but I just read you have an injury. If you can find anything that doesn’t give your back issues just pump up the volume and kill it. Like maybe front squats, leg press, leg extresions and hamstring curls.

I didn’t read about your specific back injury but if you have one and it’s impeding you the last thing I would worry about is strength and powerlifting routines.

Lighter weight and volume on a bodybuilding split my friend.

I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

Ah, this clears things up. I didn’t read that, but I was going to suggest back and legs needed work. Arms look good though. Keep at it man, you will keep making gains. Consider taking a GDA with your starchy carb meals. The addition of a GDA has really helped me lean out during my recomp. [/quote]

can you recommend one?[/quote]

Truenutrition.com sells a really good one. It basically has everything mentioned in this article. 6 Strategies for Improved Insulin Sensitivity

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

I do absolutely agree with this. In the technical, yeah, strength is important and is what separates a lot of gym goers but it’s not the end-all-be-all in my opinion. I use to lift relatively heavy (for me!,) and got like a ~315 x 3 bench (lolz,) just sub-500 deadlift for reps and 405 a2g squats for 3-4ish (4th rep was more like a good morning and awful.) That being said, I really wasn’t gaining any kind of quality size, I would often be burnt out and I am a super injury-prone person so I never felt good.

Then I started training… a different way (let’s just call it traditional bodybuilding/volume training) and EVERYTHING started clicking.

That being said, Hungry4More trained about as heavy and low-volume as anyone I’d ever seen and he’s a beast, so maybe I’ll stfu.

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

I do absolutely agree with this. In the technical, yeah, strength is important and is what separates a lot of gym goers but it’s not the end-all-be-all in my opinion. I use to lift relatively heavy (for me!,) and got like a ~315 x 3 bench (lolz,) just sub-500 deadlift for reps and 405 a2g squats for 3-4ish (4th rep was more like a good morning and awful.) That being said, I really wasn’t gaining any kind of quality size, I would often be burnt out and I am a super injury-prone person so I never felt good.

Then I started training… a different way (let’s just call it traditional bodybuilding/volume training) and EVERYTHING started clicking.

That being said, Hungry4More trained about as heavy and low-volume as anyone I’d ever seen and he’s a beast, so maybe I’ll stfu.[/quote]

Definitely works for H4M and others, but not everyone. Personally, I started seeing my best gains when lifting for pure hypertrophy (volume, pump, lighter weight). I will say though, without a decent strength base, it is very difficult to progress.

Avi is lookin pretty kick ass SSC, good progress dude.

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

I do absolutely agree with this. In the technical, yeah, strength is important and is what separates a lot of gym goers but it’s not the end-all-be-all in my opinion. I use to lift relatively heavy (for me!,) and got like a ~315 x 3 bench (lolz,) just sub-500 deadlift for reps and 405 a2g squats for 3-4ish (4th rep was more like a good morning and awful.) That being said, I really wasn’t gaining any kind of quality size, I would often be burnt out and I am a super injury-prone person so I never felt good.

Then I started training… a different way (let’s just call it traditional bodybuilding/volume training) and EVERYTHING started clicking.

That being said, Hungry4More trained about as heavy and low-volume as anyone I’d ever seen and he’s a beast, so maybe I’ll stfu.[/quote]

I think that I have the same problem with people saying that lifting heavy isn’t important that I do with people who advise against doing a really committed bulk that results in some adipose stores: namely, everyone who says heavy weights aren’t required have at some point in their past lifted very heavy weights. Similarly, experienced people who say “Don’t let yourself put on much fat–lean bulk” got to where they are by pushing the limits and putting on some adipose themselves.

There’s a difference between learning from past experience and revising past history. For someone who has built a base of strength and mass, lean gains may be more desirable and even promote growth better. But to advocate that to someone at a much earlier stage in his development is, to me at least, not learning from experience but instead trying to revise past experience. Someone may say “Ah, I wish I had done lean gains back then” or whatever, but ultimately he has no idea whether that would have resulted in a successful gaining cycle. In fact, I suspect that it wouldn’t because such a high degree of micromanaging for someone who is building the initial mass would probably lead to either a decision to cut way too early or for the person to settle into a certain set point and basically spin his wheels for a good while.

I also honestly don’t really understand the “I haven’t touched a weight above 300lbs”-as if that were something to be proud of or something. There’s a massive difference between squatting in the 3-400lb range and benching in the 5s.

I remember when I first started reading these forums professor x eluded that if you dig deep enough you find the truth, and I’ve found this to be 100% accurate.

Also people who already put on a lot of mass can do lean bulks while keeping abs, then they tell these poor 140 pound kids to keep their abs year round.

Yeah I was told by the doc that I have a pulled muscle in my lower back and to not use it for 2-3 weeks. Its been almost 3 weeks and I just hurt it again bending over to tie my shoe. So I think it may be something worse, which is why I think I may go get an MRI soon. I really want to lift heavy weights, like really bad. I love the progression and the percentages and the progress. Its like almost addicting to me. I really enojoy hitting my one heavy lift for the day and then using a good amount of volume to really target the muscles afterward. THanks for all your advice though everyone.

@pualie, I’m assuming thats you in your avatar. Pretty impressive size man

ANybody have any ideas on how to heal a pulled muscle faster? Deer antler velvet spray maybe? haha. seriously though any advice on faster healing would be greatly appreciated

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
I’ve never lifted 300lbs in my life on anything but a deadlift and that was only 315.

If you want to be strong do it, but be smart. Who cares if you bench 500 if in the next decade you can only hit a painful top set of 275 because of injuries.[/quote]

I do absolutely agree with this. In the technical, yeah, strength is important and is what separates a lot of gym goers but it’s not the end-all-be-all in my opinion. I use to lift relatively heavy (for me!,) and got like a ~315 x 3 bench (lolz,) just sub-500 deadlift for reps and 405 a2g squats for 3-4ish (4th rep was more like a good morning and awful.) That being said, I really wasn’t gaining any kind of quality size, I would often be burnt out and I am a super injury-prone person so I never felt good.

Then I started training… a different way (let’s just call it traditional bodybuilding/volume training) and EVERYTHING started clicking.

That being said, Hungry4More trained about as heavy and low-volume as anyone I’d ever seen and he’s a beast, so maybe I’ll stfu.[/quote]

I think that I have the same problem with people saying that lifting heavy isn’t important that I do with people who advise against doing a really committed bulk that results in some adipose stores: namely, everyone who says heavy weights aren’t required have at some point in their past lifted very heavy weights. Similarly, experienced people who say “Don’t let yourself put on much fat–lean bulk” got to where they are by pushing the limits and putting on some adipose themselves.

There’s a difference between learning from past experience and revising past history. For someone who has built a base of strength and mass, lean gains may be more desirable and even promote growth better. But to advocate that to someone at a much earlier stage in his development is, to me at least, not learning from experience but instead trying to revise past experience. Someone may say “Ah, I wish I had done lean gains back then” or whatever, but ultimately he has no idea whether that would have resulted in a successful gaining cycle. In fact, I suspect that it wouldn’t because such a high degree of micromanaging for someone who is building the initial mass would probably lead to either a decision to cut way too early or for the person to settle into a certain set point and basically spin his wheels for a good while.

I also honestly don’t really understand the “I haven’t touched a weight above 300lbs”-as if that were something to be proud of or something. There’s a massive difference between squatting in the 3-400lb range and benching in the 5s.
[/quote]

Amen!
It seems reasonable that as a bodybuilder develops they will reach points when some methods and techniques are replaced; not because the previous methods were ineffective, but because the lifter has reached a point where priorities have changed. Until a lifter has developed the â??substrateâ?? to form the â??lookâ?? no single variable (other than injury prevention) is as important as adding pounds to the bar. Telling people anything else, especially if your advice contradicts your history, seems dishonest to me. Ditto on the bulking.

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

I also honestly don’t really understand the “I haven’t touched a weight above 300lbs”-as if that were something to be proud of or something. There’s a massive difference between squatting in the 3-400lb range and benching in the 5s.
[/quote]

I just wanted him to have longevity in mind, and if he had a lower back issue that a powerlifting specific routine probably wasn’t the best idea at this time.
So he could maybe make up the difference by increasing volume, reps, frequency or whatever.

he obviously loves strength style lifting. This is fine, and he should do it…when his back feels better.

I just used myself not having to get very strong to grow.

Personally I don’t lift so heavy that within the first few reps my eyes want to explode. Out of the 4-5 years I’ve been lifting I’ve only consistently spent a couple months doing 5x5 or strength type lifting but still this was on a body part split. Honestly, I’ll probably try to avoid reps under 5 for the rest of my life simply because lifting heavy like this causes all kinds of pain and I don’t progress as well.

And to be honest I’m not that huge or anything. I’m 5’8 and I weigh 209 lbs and by the time I’m done cutting I’ll probably be less than 195 but still no where near stage lean or anything. So take it or leave it.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

Amen!
It seems reasonable that as a bodybuilder develops they will reach points when some methods and techniques are replaced; not because the previous methods were ineffective, but because the lifter has reached a point where priorities have changed. Until a lifter has developed the â??substrateâ?? to form the â??lookâ?? no single variable (other than injury prevention) is as important as adding pounds to the bar. Telling people anything else, especially if your advice contradicts your history, seems dishonest to me. Ditto on the bulking. [/quote]

Great post. It is all about progression. It is great to tell guys not to gain too much fat. It isn’t cool to act like working on all out size for a while didn’t help you at all.

Would I eat now like I used to when going all out for size? Hell no. I was pushing my limits back then to see what I could do. That doesn’t mean it didn’t help when I did it. I just don’t need it now.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

Amen!
It seems reasonable that as a bodybuilder develops they will reach points when some methods and techniques are replaced; not because the previous methods were ineffective, but because the lifter has reached a point where priorities have changed. Until a lifter has developed the �¢??substrate�¢?? to form the �¢??look�¢?? no single variable (other than injury prevention) is as important as adding pounds to the bar. Telling people anything else, especially if your advice contradicts your history, seems dishonest to me. Ditto on the bulking. [/quote]

Great post. It is all about progression. It is great to tell guys not to gain too much fat. It isn’t cool to act like working on all out size for a while didn’t help you at all.

Would I eat now like I used to when going all out for size? Hell no. I was pushing my limits back then to see what I could do. That doesn’t mean it didn’t help when I did it. I just don’t need it now.
[/quote]

x2, I gained a lot of weight this last year and that was essential. The approach I’m using now is different, but wouldn’t have worked so well last year. Whether it’s because I just know how to manage my calories better or that the heavy bulk was absolutely necessary to make my body adapt, it doesn’t really matter as it allowed me to progress and now refine.