When to Bulk/Cut

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Shotgun wrote:
At 13% your body will look significantly better every percent that you lose.

So I’d say it’s worth it to go down to 10%.

It should take 1 month or so.[/quote]

This isn’t true. Smeone who isn’t carrying much muscle mass will not look “better” simply because they are leaner. 13% is not obese, fat, or chunky, especially at his current weight. If anything, clean up your diet and work on keeping a sharper focus on protein intake while you continue gaining.

If you get into the cycle of dieting and dropping weight every single time you hit 13% body fat, you will never make that much overall progress in the long run.

22

Prof.X

[qoute]It seems there are far too many metrosexuals on this board and far too few people who lift to get exceptionally stronger than average, more muscular than average, or build more functional athletic power than average. All I see is someone logging on and asking about a diet…someone else logs on and gives them a link to an article on this site and tells them to buy more supplements…and then a few more posts throwing hugs at the person.[/quote]

LOL, ROFLMAO.

I LOVE those last two post. That is frigging great and sadly true to a point the past few months has seem a big shift, but damn it I have faith it will turn about again.

Mainly this time of year. 99% of people should be asking about bulking and getting more muscular and stronger. I my self said screw last summer. I started bulking last May and will continue till spring a full year nearly. I am currently about 35 lbs heavier than I was in May.

Sure I have some more BF than I did and have just recently reached a point where it is near out of hand. Will I go to cutting no NO. Not really. Just make some adjustments and clean it up a bit and keep trying to put on LBM and hopefully drop some BF. Then come next spring I will cut down a bit. If needed.

The problem is all these people do this damn yoyo thinking they can eat like mad for 2-4 weeks and really pack on some size then cut back down and be ripped and huge. NOPE. Cutting is easy and fast. Buliding LBM is a LONG HARD process. If you bjust keep the yoyo going on all you accomplish is staying the same and driving yourself nuts. You add a lb or to of quality mass and then dont feed it enough for any amount of time and cut down and lose it.

Sure some really need to lose weight. I dont want to be a big fat bastard ever again either. But I want soem size also and know to get that size I have to carry a reasonable amount of BF for quite some time.

Anyway this turned LONG. Really just wanted to agree with you. Great work.

Phill

23

I find it hard to get lean, but really only care in the summer time anyway. Unless you are already fat, I’d say screw it, pack on some mass.

My plan is to lean out during March, April and May so I’ll be at my best during the summer months.

So, as a macro answer, if you aren’t competitive, bulk during the fall and winter, cut during the spring and look good during the summer…

24

Does it have to be an either/or situation wrt cutting and bulking?

I am definitely not an expert, but in the 7 months I’ve been actually eating and lifting right, I’ve gained 11 pounds of muscle and lost 16 pounds of fat. I’m no bodybuilder, but I did see my BF go from 19% down to 13%.

I guess my question is, if you have your nutrition dialed in and your training as well, can’t you gain muscle AND lose fat at the same time?

The numbers suggest that I did. I know CT did in his ‘Beast Evolves’ series.

25

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
At 13% your body will look significantly better every percent that you lose.

So I’d say it’s worth it to go down to 10%.

It should take 1 month or so.

This isn’t true. Smeone who isn’t carrying much muscle mass will not look “better” simply because they are leaner. 13% is not obese, fat, or chunky, especially at his current weight. If anything, clean up your diet and work on keeping a sharper focus on protein intake while you continue gaining.

If you get into the cycle of dieting and dropping weight every single time you hit 13% body fat, you will never make that much overall progress in the long run.[/quote]

I agree only partially with what you say.

First of all, we all know some guys who are rather small but look amazingly good because they’re ripped. Bruce Lee was an example of that.

Someone very cut usually looks impressive even with not much muscle.

As for not going beyond 13% to add significant muscle, I don’t think it’s necessary. By using a recomposition program you can stay at a low BF and still gain muscle.

26

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Does it have to be an either/or situation wrt cutting and bulking?

I am definitely not an expert, but in the 7 months I’ve been actually eating and lifting right, I’ve gained 11 pounds of muscle and lost 16 pounds of fat. I’m no bodybuilder, but I did see my BF go from 19% down to 13%.

I guess my question is, if you have your nutrition dialed in and your training as well, can’t you gain muscle AND lose fat at the same time?

The numbers suggest that I did. I know CT did in his ‘Beast Evolves’ series.
[/quote]

You can, by using a recomposition program - that’s what I do-.

The idea is not to gain muscle and loose fat at the same time, but to alternate periods of bulk and cut within one week.

However, it is better imo to focus on losing fat without losing muscle or gaining muscle without gaining fat with a program like that. You can focus more on your objective and you see the progress faster so it’s more encouraging.

And when you’re tired of bulking or cutting, you just have to modify the bulk/cut ratio in the week to do the contrary. I never get bored with this system.

27

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Does it have to be an either/or situation wrt cutting and bulking?

I am definitely not an expert, but in the 7 months I’ve been actually eating and lifting right, I’ve gained 11 pounds of muscle and lost 16 pounds of fat. I’m no bodybuilder, but I did see my BF go from 19% down to 13%.

I guess my question is, if you have your nutrition dialed in and your training as well, can’t you gain muscle AND lose fat at the same time?

The numbers suggest that I did. I know CT did in his ‘Beast Evolves’ series.
[/quote]

Much of that is simply because you are a beginner. Most beginners can lose fat and gain at the same time. This is not the usual attainable goal for those who are not new to the weight room. That doesn’t mean that it is impossible to make gains in lean body mass while losing fat…however, it does mean that if you make that your GOAL (to do both at once) that chances are you will be running in circles for more than you will be making significant progress. The rest is a matter of your genetics and diet. I have dieted and gained some lean body mass before…however, my GOAL was not to do both at the same time and that process is not easily duplicated. Most professional bodybuilders wouldn’t even attempt trying to gain and lose at the same time. That is the reason for an off season.

28

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Much of that is simply because you are a beginner. Most beginners can lose fat and gain at the same time. This is not the usual attainable goal for those who are not new to the weight room. [/quote]

Hardly a beginner here. It was the first time, however, I had my training and diet dialed in at the same time.

I disagree with the running in circles statement. If your diet is right, and your training is right, then progress will be slower, but not fruitless.

‘Significant progress’ is the subjective term that is the problem. It needs to have a time frame attached to mean anything. Do I want to lose 20 pounds of fat in 3 months? Then yes, I will sacrifice muscle mass to do it. Conversely, If I want to put the same amount of muscle on in 6 months, I will gain fat in the process.

I think CT wqould opine differently. He has said as much in his articles.

We’re not talking pros here. The guy is 5’11" and 175, or so. Hardly one to mimmick the pro’s.

But I could be wrong - and you’ll probably be more than happy to point that out.

29

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I disagree with the running in circles statement. If your diet is right, and your training is right, then progress will be slower, but not fruitless. [/quote]

That is significant because if your goal is to make slow progress towards your goal, by all means, take years to gain 5lbs of muscle if that is your goal. My particular goal was to reach close to my genetic potential before the age of 30. I did that. I seriously doubt I would have done that had I been that afraid to gain some extra body fat along the way. It is also much easier to lose any extra body fat now that I am carrying the amount of lean body mass that I am.

I don’t read every article on this site and I have no doubt that you will find different opinions across the entire spectrum of weight training and bodybuilding, however, one fact most trainers do agree on is that genetics play a large factor in how you should organize your training and diet. I don’t see how someone could disagree with that. If I have a fast metabolism, it is not necessary for me to be as strict with my diet as someone with a much slower metabolism. Also, if I am a mesomorph who gains muscle easily, I don’t need to structure my training like everyone else.

Regardless of who you are talking about, if you plan to make SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS, which would exclude someone in this to “tone” or “shape” their muscles, it is not wise to expect to gain a ton of muscle while simultaneously losing a ton of body fat. That isn’t a realistic way to approach this. Can it happen? Yes, of course. The human body can gain muscle over a period of time while having lost fat in that same period of time. Most people training have experienced some form of this, but I doubt you will find anyone who says, “Hey, I gained 30lbs of muscle while also losing 40lbs of body fat after having trained for 5 years”. If you happen to be a rank beginner or someone who never ate and trained right before, you are more likely to see progress like that. If your goal is to change the way you look significantly, suck it up and expect that you will have to spend some time simply working on size, period. The fat can be lost at a later time. However, this yo-yo crap every time you hit 13% body fat is ridiculous.

30

Why would you want to loose the fat later and not right away? What difference does it make?

One can even argue that it works better if you loose it as soon as you gain it because:

  • when you cut your metabolism is always high. Same for the leptin.

  • when you bulk you have a better partionning effect after the cut.

Alternating high calories/low cal within 1 week works well. I know a lot of people who have success doing that.

I even think it’s one of the most important thing to do if one wants to accelerate his gains.

31

[quote]Shotgun wrote:
Why would you want to loose the fat later and not right away? What difference does it make?

One can even argue that it works better if you loose it as soon as you gain it because:

  • when you cut your metabolism is always high. Same for the leptin.

  • when you bulk you have a better partionning effect after the cut.

Alternating high calories/low cal within 1 week works well. I know a lot of people who have success doing that.

I even think it’s one of the most important thing to do if one wants to accelerate his gains. [/quote]

Alternating that often between high and low calories never allows your body the ability to actually spend quaility time gaining lean body mass. Fat loss is not a very complicated task. What makes that one aspect more complicated is the act of trying to maintain muscle mass.

However, the act of gaining lean body mass is not that easy to map out and get accomplished. It can take YEARS to gain quality amounts of lean muscle mass while it can take only 3 months of dieting to get rid of extra body fat. That is why you don’t jump around constantly, alternating between high and low calories unless you don’t mind making very little progress.

32

I just gotta throw in my two cents. I agree with rainjack’s statement; it is possible to gain muscle and lose fat and the same time. HOWEVER, doing so is very difficult and requires a lot of attention to nutrition. Last summer I was trying to remove some love handles that mysteriously appeared during the winter. Consequently, I really paid attention to my nutrition: I kept a food log, ate every 2 hours, and watched my macronutrient amounts. Surprisingly, my weight rose but I was actually becoming leaner. And just so you know Prof, I’ve been lifting for several years…I just hadn’t been paying attention to nutrition until recently.

My advice to T-man is to bulk now. Winter is a great time to try and add muscle. The weather’s unpleasant, you aren’t doing much stuff outside, and you won’t be taking trips to the pool or anything soon. Just pay attention to what you eat, pick a mass program, and go for it. You’ll be able to drop any excess weight once it starts warming up again.

Fish

33

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:
.I just hadn’t been paying attention to nutrition until recently.
[/quote]

That one statement puts into the exact same category as rainjack and I mentioned that. Other than that, I agree with most of what you wrote and this has already been written above. When it comes to those who are trying to make significant changes, spend some quality time gaining. Trying to go up and down in calories all week is a great way to stagnate.

34

ProfessorX,

I actually agree with most of what you say and I’m an ectomorph who has a hell of a time putting on muscle. I think there are a lot of smaller dudes on here way too worried about sporting six packs without having nearly enough size for a bb forum.

However, I’ve learned in my relatively short time lifting seriously (3+ years) that when I went on a constant bulk/maintenance/bulk/maintenance alternating phase approach over 8 months that towards the latter bulk phases I was putting on too much fat and not enough lbm. I’ve found that when I do reach a point of too much fat it is better to lose some of it before going on another bulk cycle. As was said above, I seem to experience a better partitioning effect when bulking after a cut cycle. But I will also say that this is not a one week bulk, one week cut approach. It is more of a 4 to 6 week bulk followed by a few weeks maintenance by a few weeks of cutting before going on the next bulk phase. In the next year I will determine how well this worked compared to my previous approach.

There does appear to be some on here with a neuroses to gaining any fat while bulking so I see what you’re saying.

35

I couldn’t agree with you more Prof. I should have pointed out that the gains I had during the summer were small and that I’ve added much more muscle during sustained bulking phases.

36

From what I’ve seen, a lot of guys like bulking (understandable) and say that they can lose the fat, but it never really happens. Lets face it, we’d all rather eat more then less right? So I don’t think it’s such a bad idea to keep one’s BF below 13% at all times, just keep everything in check. I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t lift weights to get fat.

37

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Why would you want to loose the fat later and not right away? What difference does it make?

One can even argue that it works better if you loose it as soon as you gain it because:

  • when you cut your metabolism is always high. Same for the leptin.

  • when you bulk you have a better partionning effect after the cut.

Alternating high calories/low cal within 1 week works well. I know a lot of people who have success doing that.

I even think it’s one of the most important thing to do if one wants to accelerate his gains.

Alternating that often between high and low calories never allows your body the ability to actually spend quaility time gaining lean body mass. Fat loss is not a very complicated task. What makes that one aspect more complicated is the act of trying to maintain muscle mass.

However, the act of gaining lean body mass is not that easy to map out and get accomplished. It can take YEARS to gain quality amounts of lean muscle mass while it can take only 3 months of dieting to get rid of extra body fat. That is why you don’t jump around constantly, alternating between high and low calories unless you don’t mind making very little progress. [/quote]

Well, it works well for me anyways. I’ve talked to other people who have had success with that kind of approach too.

One guy I talked to has been able to gain 10lbs of muscle and only 4lbs of fat in 4 months with a diet that optimized the partitionning.

Before that he did a straight bulk and gained a shitload of fat.

Personaly I’m sick and tired of gaining fat, doing cuts that never ends etc. This is fvcking boring.

Most of the time you don’t even look so good… During your bulk, you add as much fat as muscle so you don’t really look better, and during the cut you’re carb-depleted so you also don’t look that good.

I think that if there’s a way to gain muscle while keeping a low bf, it has to be done. It’s just too good to be cut and full.

And when I say to cycle calories when bulking, it’s like doing a fast cut in 1-2 days during the week, that’s it. In 1-2 days you can easily loose 1/2 lb of fat with little risk of losing muscle because your metabolism and leptin are at their maximum. In the middle of a cut that’s another story…

38

[quote]got_beer? wrote:
From what I’ve seen, a lot of guys like bulking (understandable) and say that they can lose the fat, but it never really happens. Lets face it, we’d all rather eat more then less right? So I don’t think it’s such a bad idea to keep one’s BF below 13% at all times, just keep everything in check. I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t lift weights to get fat.[/quote]

I agree. We are bodybuilders. We should be big and cut as often as possible.

However I’m not sure that the approach of a very slow bulk is really effective.

imho…

39

[quote]Shotgun wrote:

I agree. We are bodybuilders. We should be big and cut as often as possible.
…[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is promoting becoming a fat ass. That pic in my avatar is about the heaviest I get…and no, my abs were not visible which is one reason the tank top is on. I seriously doubt many are seeing enough growth by being overly worried about remaining extremely lean to match that of those who simply work on size for a LONG TIME…get to a point where they feel they have enough size and then diet down. I am in the process of dieting now. This is the first time I am even attempting to get leaner than usual and that is only because I feel I have the size to justify it. That isn’t saying that I think everyone should try to weigh as much as I do. I also know there are many who are way bigger than I am. However, if you are skinny, do not expect to put on a great deal of size by dieting every few weeks. If you begin to gain too much body fat, it is at that point that you clean your diet up more…not jump on a strict diet every single time and drop weight. That will only lead to running in circles in most cases.

40

I have to say I totally agree with prof.x and phill. These guys know what they are talking about! I learned a great deal from here and insist on getting huge. I am currently bulking to become an insane specimen, I am currently 6’6 255 and am looking to get to 275 or more, I am planning on doing a few cycles of bulking and cutting to achieve SIZE and muscle. I will keep doing so until I am satisfied, that could be a long time though!, I already gained 25lbs in the past 8 weeks through heavy training getting alot of protein and good foods and by use of creatine as well, it seems to be getting harder to gain now but I am hoping to be 275lbs by Jan 5th, it seems like a long shot but I aint gonna give up. GET BIG OR DIE TRYING! Too many womenly men ruin this board, ie those 150lb lightweights who wana get toned, just so they can get the girl, and no other reason, thats just plain sad and for all of you that are like this get a damn life, go and model some freakin CK underwear. (I hate metrosexuals)