T Nation

When Socialism Fails


#1

#2

When capitalism fails is a more appropriate title for this thread.


#3

what does this have to do with socialisme. spain is a capitalist country. I dont see the connection.

but if the activists where socialists, and because the police kicked there asses, socialisme failed that day in spain. well if thats the case, the title should be, when socialists fails and fascists wins.

anyway, where you going with this jon? do you miss the socialist debates so much, that you need to start another one.


#4

There were protests all over Europe that very same day, in countries ruled by right wing and left wing governments. But, as usual, you cherrypick your argument. And the Spanish government was far from socialist.


#5

Really, these country's where laissez-faire capitalistic country's.

If you think Europe had capitalism that proves just how little you know about capitalism. They where much closer to socialism then capitalism.


#6

No it shows that you know absolutely nothing about political systems whatsoever. Also I don't understand your first sentence. Having some liberal policies is not the same as being a socialist country. Try listening to someone other than Glenn Beck or Fox News


#7

a capitalist economy is an economy where the incentive for economic action is profit. there are different forms: frome statecapitalisme to laissez-faire capitalisme.


#8

so he would have been better to say a free market economy. Which far superior to these nationalized nanaystate political/economic systems you people tought.

The free market and liberty is what made The U.S. the most powerful country and you are happy to see your pathetic ideologies bring it to it's knees. I don't need Glenn Beck or fox news or anyone else to tell me that.


#9

yeah its importent to see the difference beetwen the real world capitalism and the classical liberalist ideology.

when it comes to whats most superior of free market liberalism and other ideologys, the first dont win. its a reason the state have gained size and power in most western countrys in the last 100years. socialliberalism/mixed economy is the most succsesfull form of capitalisme up to date.

the reason america became the most powerfull country after WW2 is not because of free market liberalisme. its because it was not in ruin as rest of the world, that offcourse gave them a upper hand. even so they had competition from sovjet who actually where greatly affected by ww2. So no there are no historical evidence that says free-market-liberalism is superior to either socialliberalism or socialism. but you can say that untill know capitalisme( in a broad sence ) have been the most dynamic and progressive system from an economical point of wiew. from an humanitarian point of wiew, the democratic ideas and traditions of both liberalist and socialist origin reign supreme.


#10

So you guys believe that people rioting over the government cutting benefits is capitalism, that actually explains alot.


#11

Good respnse thank you, I tend to disagree with some of it, but that is personal interpretation of the events. I believe that WWII started our down fall by pushing women to the work force, the start of feminism and social justice all of which contradict the idea of a free market. It was these unnoticable moves that allowed more and more of the special interest, entitlement mindset and federal control to dominate the market and slowly allow to appear as it was prospering while it was being destroyed from within.


#12

what!!

you did only post a video of a fight beetwen police and activists. you did not explain the point.

if you see my first post in this tread I ask about what you do mean with "socialisme fails"


#13

from a "the most powerfull country in the world" perspectiv, the post WW2 era was not a downfall for USA.

but you are know clearly talking about something else. that with greatest country you ment a country where womans dont work and where feminism dont exist. I dont see what this has to do with free-market-liberalism, its sounds more like socialconservatism or something similar.

btw: females have been apart of the industrial workforce since 1800+ something. and feminism did exist before WW2.


#14

They have to cut because of the financial crisis which everyone knows occured due to the deregulation of the financial markets.


#15

It was hidden loss, we started to sacrifice more rights at that point for individual and business to feed the machine that would inevitability lead to stalling and sputtering.

I am not necessaily talking about feminism, more of removal of parental guidance. You have grown up in a culture where people all view each othere members of this group. The idea of america that tempts everyone, is that yes we are americans, but first and foremost we are our own individual selves responsible and accountible to reap our benefits or our failures. But some people can not really handle that freedom, independece so then government such as our entitlement minded one start to "progress". But you cannot force someone to be responsible for someone else including your luxurious lifestyle, speaking of the nationistic elite" without it blowing up in your face.

The real idea of freedom depends on the compassion and decsency of people to care for each other when times get rough, not have the government rape you more and still provide sub par resolutions.

I am sorry if I don't make sense, but I am not a politically minded person or philospher. I am an analytical scientist by training and education. but I can see what is working and not working as I learn more, at least for our country. I work for the second largest pharma company in the globe in the vaccines division, and once I am secure enough I will be moving to the country opening a farm with grass feed beef, free range chickens, and organic produce. I want out of this system that is growing.


#16

sure, that's it.

cuz you lived it right. part of the system.


#17

That's what most of the economic experts point to as the main reason at least.


#18

Nothing discredits a statement as fast as the use of the phrase 'as everyone knows...'.


#19

People are rioting because they happen like what most here in the US would call "socialism". They would like to see things like unemployment addressed instead of focusing on cutting budget deficits and debt.

If you really look in to why they are rioting, it is in protest of the measures demanded of their country aka austerity. The people of Europe aren't cool with the IMF and World Bank forcing them to accept austerity measures. Not that the IMF and World Bank are completely wrong, but they have had a history of focusing on wide-scale monetary policies with no real regard for how those policies can have a negative impact on much of the country, specifically the less-wealthy part of the population.

And also it's pretty safe to say that everyone knows deregulation played a huge role in the financial crisis, which is ultimately lead to this continent-wide protest.


#20

John,

You have to understand, Europeans believe it's the government's job to provide. So yes, in their minds, the reduction of govt programs and entitlements is a step towards capitalism. But what Europe is realizing is that their system is unsustainable. You cannot have 1/3 (or more) of your country's population working for the government, then having retirement and pensions kick in at the age of 50. Add this to socialized medicine and university education, and people wonder how they took the fast lane to bankruptcy. Now, you have people in Greece rioting, 20% unemployment in Spain (not to mention the contribution of the "green jobs" bullshit which cost them 2 jobs for every "green job" created.)

If Americans want to know why people move so slow in Europe, why the customer service is fucking horseshit in Europe, it's because there is no reason to work hard. What's the point of working for a raise, when you're taxed at maybe 60% (or more) depending the country?