T Nation

When Does Dose Go from TRT to AAS?

200mg per week puts most people at 1000+ which is still “in normal range” - my question , which may be obvious : does muscle gain and fat loss ALWAYS increase as you go up in dosage of Test Cyp. - reason I question this is when I went from 100mg to 160mg per week I did not notice much difference . I also increased my anastrozole to off set E2 conversion . The reason I posted in steroid section is because this section has people who use a wide spectrum of dose amounts and can comment on the effects from one to another . Maybe a better question would be to ask if anyone did a 250mg per week cycle ( maybe 16 weeks ) of T cyp and had decent results then went back to 150mg week or is this hardly worth it .

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]tapitdeep wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?

[/quote]
150 might be a wee high for a TRT dose but if it’s working for you, great. Typically it’s at about 400mg, but conjecture says 500mg is a good “starting point”. Frankly, anything over TRT does (100-150mg/week) is going to continue to raise your test and help to build and maintain more muscle. It’s also going to begin to cause the sides typically associated with higher doses.[/quote]

I know a large number of people on TRT doses at 200mg/week, prescribed and shot at the doc’s office. [/quote]

200 is very typical if you self inject you will notice on the vial it says 200mg/1ml per week injected IM… I’ve run that much without a AI or HCG and had no problems but everyone is different… Better to be safe then sorry though if your worried about bitch tits and bacne

On this logic then, 400 would be 2x a normal amount of test, 600 would be 3x a normal amount of test?

Not to hijack the thread but I’m having difficulty finding the comparisons between compounds in regards to anabolic and androgenic potency, does anyone have a link?

That seems correct - 400mg per week would yield 2000 total test level . 600mg yield 3000 total test level ?

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?
[/quote]

you are not going to see unnatural size gains on those doses.

do cardio at the end of workouts and mornings before eating anything and you will be surprised at the increase in muscle definition.

increase your protein intake. keep an eye on your blood pressure as Mr.Walkway always said. it can go high without you noticing.

16 weeks is overkill, if you were to do a cycle keep it at ten - twelve weeks. besides cutting the number of weeks combine intense calisthenics with resistance training to diminish the effects of myostatin which limits your growth.

then return to your 150mg/week trt doesage. always divide injection doses to lessen spike and retain a steady hormone level.

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
That seems correct - 400mg per week would yield 2000 total test level . 600mg yield 3000 total test level ? [/quote]

It doesn’t increase exactly linearly for whatever reason, but fairly close (looks like within 85-90%)

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?
[/quote]

you are not going to see unnatural size gains on those doses.

do cardio at the end of workouts and mornings before eating anything and you will be surprised at the increase in muscle definition.

increase your protein intake. keep an eye on your blood pressure as Mr.Walkway always said. it can go high without you noticing.

16 weeks is overkill, if you were to do a cycle keep it at eight - twelve weeks. besides cutting the number of weeks try to combine calisthenics with weight lifting, it is said that and creatine supplementation can lessen the influence of myostatin.

the body releases myostatin which inhibits muscle differentiation and growth after so many weeks. myostatin is produced in your skeletal muscle cells and it circulates in the blood and acts on muscle tissue.

then return to your 150mg/week trt doesage. always divide injection doses to lessen spike and retain a steady hormone level.


[/quote]

Two good threads , but what does that have to do with original question? I am keeping estrogen in check with AI , and I inject 2x week

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]tapitdeep wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?

[/quote]
150 might be a wee high for a TRT dose but if it’s working for you, great. Typically it’s at about 400mg, but conjecture says 500mg is a good “starting point”. Frankly, anything over TRT does (100-150mg/week) is going to continue to raise your test and help to build and maintain more muscle. It’s also going to begin to cause the sides typically associated with higher doses.[/quote]

I know a large number of people on TRT doses at 200mg/week, prescribed and shot at the doc’s office. [/quote]

Must be a popular doc, because that is not standard, responsible, or healthy. Only a small minority of TRT patients ever need doses that high, so if you know lots of patients of this doc on that dose, I would say run away from that doc.

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]tapitdeep wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?

[/quote]
150 might be a wee high for a TRT dose but if it’s working for you, great. Typically it’s at about 400mg, but conjecture says 500mg is a good “starting point”. Frankly, anything over TRT does (100-150mg/week) is going to continue to raise your test and help to build and maintain more muscle. It’s also going to begin to cause the sides typically associated with higher doses.[/quote]

I know a large number of people on TRT doses at 200mg/week, prescribed and shot at the doc’s office. [/quote]

Must be a popular doc, because that is not standard, responsible, or healthy. Only a small minority of TRT patients ever need doses that high, so if you know lots of patients of this doc on that dose, I would say run away from that doc.
[/quote]

200 mg/week is very resasonable to maintain levels at the top of the normal range. You really have no clue what you’re talking about.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]tapitdeep wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?

[/quote]
150 might be a wee high for a TRT dose but if it’s working for you, great. Typically it’s at about 400mg, but conjecture says 500mg is a good “starting point”. Frankly, anything over TRT does (100-150mg/week) is going to continue to raise your test and help to build and maintain more muscle. It’s also going to begin to cause the sides typically associated with higher doses.[/quote]

I know a large number of people on TRT doses at 200mg/week, prescribed and shot at the doc’s office. [/quote]

Must be a popular doc, because that is not standard, responsible, or healthy. Only a small minority of TRT patients ever need doses that high, so if you know lots of patients of this doc on that dose, I would say run away from that doc.
[/quote]

200 mg/week is very resasonable to maintain levels at the top of the normal range. You really have no clue what you’re talking about. [/quote]

2nd that. 200mg a week puts me in the 900s ng/dl. Pretty reasonable.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]tapitdeep wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?

[/quote]
150 might be a wee high for a TRT dose but if it’s working for you, great. Typically it’s at about 400mg, but conjecture says 500mg is a good “starting point”. Frankly, anything over TRT does (100-150mg/week) is going to continue to raise your test and help to build and maintain more muscle. It’s also going to begin to cause the sides typically associated with higher doses.[/quote]

I know a large number of people on TRT doses at 200mg/week, prescribed and shot at the doc’s office. [/quote]

Must be a popular doc, because that is not standard, responsible, or healthy. Only a small minority of TRT patients ever need doses that high, so if you know lots of patients of this doc on that dose, I would say run away from that doc.
[/quote]

200 mg/week is very resasonable to maintain levels at the top of the normal range. You really have no clue what you’re talking about. [/quote]

There is a boatload of guys who are at 200 mg/wk, including myself that are not out of range. They have the blood work to back it up. VTBalla34 is right, you need to do some research.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
That seems correct - 400mg per week would yield 2000 total test level . 600mg yield 3000 total test level ? [/quote]

It doesn’t increase exactly linearly for whatever reason, but fairly close (looks like within 85-90%)

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172[/quote]

good link-i was just getting ready to post it!

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]tapitdeep wrote:

[quote]Sir toddington wrote:
I am on TRT - I take 150mg ( split in 2 doses) Test weekly - I have been lifting all my life and quite muscular . I am 45 yo . At what point would I see unnatural size gains if I up my dose - 200,250 mg per week ?

[/quote]
150 might be a wee high for a TRT dose but if it’s working for you, great. Typically it’s at about 400mg, but conjecture says 500mg is a good “starting point”. Frankly, anything over TRT does (100-150mg/week) is going to continue to raise your test and help to build and maintain more muscle. It’s also going to begin to cause the sides typically associated with higher doses.[/quote]

I know a large number of people on TRT doses at 200mg/week, prescribed and shot at the doc’s office. [/quote]

Must be a popular doc, because that is not standard, responsible, or healthy. Only a small minority of TRT patients ever need doses that high, so if you know lots of patients of this doc on that dose, I would say run away from that doc.
[/quote]

200 mg/week is very resasonable to maintain levels at the top of the normal range. You really have no clue what you’re talking about. [/quote]

Seriously, we’re going to be like that? No, it is not. I am not disputing that some guys need that much, but it does not change the fact that only a small minority needs that high of a dose, and for most of the other guys it will probably be eventually harmful.

By the way, most guys stating that they are at the top of the range at that dose mean the trough value tested at the end of the week, which is just a little dishonest, since meanwhile they are double that at the start of the week. But not that I really care. It’s their health problem.

[quote]seekonk wrote:
Seriously, we’re going to be like that? No, it is not. I am not disputing that some guys need that much, but it does not change the fact that only a small minority needs that high of a dose, and for most of the other guys it will probably be eventually harmful.

By the way, most guys stating that they are at the top of the range at that dose mean the trough value tested at the end of the week, which is just a little dishonest, since meanwhile they are double that at the start of the week. But not that I really care. It’s their health problem.
[/quote]

So I suppose you are going to provide citations for your statements, lest we believe they originate from the dark recesses of your rear orifice? Specifically, what is a “small minority”? Ultra specifically, why would maintain levels in the physiological established ranges be “eventually harmful”? You really lost me with that one. Also, please provide your citations on the trough at the end of the week. I know at least for myself (n=1, which is better than your n=0) my levels are steady throughout the week since I inject EOD or 3x/week, minimum, into my belly fat which slows release and results in more stable levels.

I really am not trying to bust your balls here but I have seen a lot of misleading and stupid statements come from you lately. Your are entitled to your [uneducated] opinions, but do not present them as fact. Of course if you can provide any substantiation to what you are saying, I would love to hear it.

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Also, please explain to me, with actual evidence if you have it, how levels are "double that’ at some point throughout the week compared to their values at the end of the week. It don’t exactly work like that bub.

I have on TRT @ 100 mg Test.Cyp. for a month. Due to a mistake, I ended up with 2 extra months supply and am thinking about running a bulking cycle of 400 mg/wk injecting twice per week for 6-8 weeks.
I work out on a 4 day/wk schedule. Would this cycle benefit me size-wise and if so, can I add a day or two if I increase my diet also.?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:
Seriously, we’re going to be like that? No, it is not. I am not disputing that some guys need that much, but it does not change the fact that only a small minority needs that high of a dose, and for most of the other guys it will probably be eventually harmful.

By the way, most guys stating that they are at the top of the range at that dose mean the trough value tested at the end of the week, which is just a little dishonest, since meanwhile they are double that at the start of the week. But not that I really care. It’s their health problem.
[/quote]

So I suppose you are going to provide citations for your statements, lest we believe they originate from the dark recesses of your rear orifice? Specifically, what is a “small minority”? Ultra specifically, why would maintain levels in the physiological established ranges be “eventually harmful”? You really lost me with that one. Also, please provide your citations on the trough at the end of the week. I know at least for myself (n=1, which is better than your n=0) my levels are steady throughout the week since I inject EOD or 3x/week, minimum, into my belly fat which slows release and results in more stable levels.

I really am not trying to bust your balls here but I have seen a lot of misleading and stupid statements come from you lately. Your are entitled to your [uneducated] opinions, but do not present them as fact. Of course if you can provide any substantiation to what you are saying, I would love to hear it.
[/quote]

Are you really asking for this dude to site case studies on his ill-informed information? (Like it exists)

It is beyond me why someone can not just say, “In my opinion” or " I am not an expert but…" Its just that some guy looking for information may take the wrong information as the gospel truth.

[quote]trhoads155 wrote:
I have on TRT @ 100 mg Test.Cyp. for a month. Due to a mistake, I ended up with 2 extra months supply and am thinking about running a bulking cycle of 400 mg/wk injecting twice per week for 6-8 weeks.
I work out on a 4 day/wk schedule. Would this cycle benefit me size-wise and if so, can I add a day or two if I increase my diet also.? [/quote]

Personally, I don’t think you will notice any gains for 4-5 weeks and then you are about to run out. If it were me, I would rather string out 300 mg/wk for a longer period of time. I just think time training is more important then a quick boost in “T”. It just gives you a longer growing time.