T Nation

What's Your Favorite Forever Template To Do While Losing Weight?


#1

In my last week of Pervertor leader right now and have enjoyed it quite a lot. That style of training (not overly complex, but with some variability) is great for my head.

Looking to lose a little weight in the next 6-8 weeks, and was curious about everyone’s experiences with various templates while eating a little less than normal. Obviously one wouldn’t want to be doing full-bore BBB or Pervertor without the calories to support it.

It’s my understanding that you want to keep the training volume still somewhat high, but possibly back off on weight a little during a weight loss period to maintain as much mass and strength as reasonably possible.


#2

I lost weight and gained quite a bit of strength while doing Rhodes 5x5/3/1 and hammering assistance between sets.


#3

There’s the “Prep and fat loss” program in Forever, I haven’t run it tho and it has requisites (basically, you need to be experienced).


#4

O that’s right! I forgot about that one.

I went back and re-read it and I think I’m going to do that. I’ve been supersetting the assistance work (push, pull, single leg) with accessory work on Pervertor to reduce total gym time and have really liked doing that. The Prep/Fat loss program works similarly.

Thanks for the reminder.


#5

When I did a 21 day squat challenge I gained several pounds and people complimented me on losing weight.


#6

Is there a Prep and Fat Loss template that doesn’t require that level of experience?


#7

I don’t think Prep and Fat Loss requires any special experience beyond any other template. In fact, the “prep” part of the name is because it prepares you to do other more challenging templates. Basically, P and FL is just a FSL template with assistance work super-settled.


#8

As I said, I haven’t run it, I’m just going by the description of the program that says “[…]this is not for beginners, and I only recommend experienced lifters attempt this program”, referring to at least five years of consistent and intelligent training as a background.
Taking a wild guess, I’d say it’s because it aims to finish the workout within a certain time and has some more assistance work, over 100 reps in some categories. I’ve been supersetting assistance stuff with main and supplemental work for a while and I recommend it, within your limits, but most of my programs had assistance within the 50 reps per category and I didn’t really pay much attention to the clock


#9

Weight loss is diet.
Most any template will work. Pick a TM to match your goals. Probably 80-85% , many people will lose some strength as your leverages change with fat loss. The strength is often regained in time.
BP usually suffers the most temporary loss. A good way to increase your BP is weight gain.
Good luck. It’s about dietary discipline.


#10

Why would you think that you needed to keep up the volume but back off on the intensity? If anything it’d would probably be the opposite. You need to do less lifting volume if you’re going to be in a caloric deficit and still lift heavy to give your body a reason to hold on to its strength and muscle.


#11

Because muscle size is primarily a result of volume, not intensity. In a caloric deficit and without the energy boost from a higher carb intake, higher weights would be more of a struggle and would lead to retention of central nervous system adaptations rather than muscle size adaptations.

That being said, I’m running the Prep/Fat loss program as written (not reducing the intensity) for a while to see how it goes.


#12

This is incorrect. Check out the “Lifting for fat loss” article on here written by Thibadeau for a better understanding.


#13

I read the article.

We are splitting hairs here. I am still using 5/3/1, so I’m not exactly going in and training “light” during this cut.

I think he does well at debunking some various myths about lifting and cutting, but hardly states anything counter to what I’m proposing here. He states that lifting sessions should be 30-45 minutes and Wendler states that all the lifting done in the Prep/Fat Loss template should be completed in 45 minutes. There are more examples.

Of course volume(or tonnage to be specific) is the primary driver of mass accumulation, if it wasn’t, we would all train heavy singles and doubles for size. We don’t, we train more sets and stay in the 5-10 rep range for accessory work(BBB, BBS, etc). That doesn’t mean going to the other extreme and doing sets of 50 with kiddie weights is better, it means there’s an ideal volume range for size. A set/rep range that provides the strongest signal for growth. It makes the most compelling case to the body to grow if you will. Therefore, continuing to train in that set/rep range while cutting(even at the expense of some intensity) should provide the strongest signal to maintain mass.

Essentially what I was saying is that if one were to choose while cutting to go in and train fewer sets, and heavier (relative to the 5/3/1 work they’re doing currently) it would not be optimal for muscle retention. Clearly Jim also thinks this way and has built the Prep/Fat Loss template accordingly.

That all being said, I’ve also never been a huge Christian fan. He’s hawking bullshit supplements in that article even, which undermines his credibility in my eyes.

Check out the concept of Maintenance Volume from Mike Isratel PhD, he covers this topic fairly well: https://renaissanceperiodization.com/training-volume-landmarks-muscle-growth/


#14

Let’s not pretend, that it is heavy either. If a few work sets of heavy’ish singles, doubles or triples affects your CNS or puts you in a recovery deficit, while trying to cut a little weight, then you have bigger issues. The fact that you are trying to achieve 3 conflicting goals is telling, that you probably don’t have much experience in the matter. Not to mention, putting too much emphasis on set volume as the primary factor of driving or maintaining hypertrophy. There’s much more going on, than sets of 5-10 reps.

I’ll pass. The guys over as JTS do quite a bit of bullshit hawking themselves.


#15

Given your username, I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that you’re a troll.

No-one said anything about a CNS stress causing a recovery deficit. What I said was, higher intensity is more psychologically taxing and when operating without the benefit of tons of carbohydrates in the diet and a caloric surplus, it would be easy to run into the ground lifting at higher intensities.

I also haven’t stated conflicting goals (losing weight and doing one’s best to maintain muscle mass is challenging but hardly conflicting goals, and they are the only 2 listed). Note that I said “doing one’s best”, not “maintaining 100% of the muscle mass achieved during a massing phase”

Lastly, of course there is more going on, but that doesn’t negate the fact that volume is the PRIMARY driver of hypertrophy (hypertrophy in a caloric deficit would be a conflicting goal).

Yes, I’m clearly very inexperienced. My applicable college education, personal weight loss experiences, and modest personal training experience obviously pale in comparison to your endless wisdom.

Now, kindly go crawl back under your bridge.


#16

Ok buddy.

No sense in lying about it, when it’s clearly typed in your op.

Intensity determines training effect, volume determines the magnitude of that effect.

Congrats on the college education, but it’s clear you lack time under the bar. Maintaining strength or muscle mass is hard enough, when trying to lose weight. Hell, losing weight, while just trying to lose weight can be hard as shit. You are trying to do it all. Pick either strength or mass and adjust your training accordingly. Strength? Do a handful of jokers after your work sets. Mass? Push your assistance of 5-10 reps or what ever gets your panties wet.


#17

You want to keep intensity high, if you drop intensity, the message that goes to your body is that it doesn’t need as much muscle mass as before since you’re lifting lighter stuff. Intensity is key to retain your muscle mass while dropping weight.
It seems that often people consider “high intensity” only doing singles and doubles in powerlifting fashion but 5/3/1 percentages and rep/set schemes (5’s Pro for example) are perfectly fine for this purpose - I guess it’s what Jim refers as “keeping the strength the strength” in the book.
Keeping volume high while in a caloric deficit is difficult since it requires a higher energy expenditure, and you’d rather not burn out too much energy while in a deficit since, likely, you’ll have less energy to spend to begin with.

Basically, from what I understand, aiming at losing fat for most people should boil down to the goals of retaining their strength, which will help them retaining muscle mass while dropping fat and, in turn, mantain muscle quality.


#18

Go to elitefts and look at Vin Dizenzo’s blog espicially the blog on his best fatburning workout using 5/3/1…used it to tighten up and drop 8lbs of fat