There seems to be a vengeance against the uninsured, and that they should be punished, because they are not a resource. The let them suffer for their inadequacy mentality. I understand in a training forum where 99.9% of the members are doing well enough, this is a common mentality.
The death to poor/unemployed/leeches was just taking it one step further. The current system is doing that passively anyway.
[quote]espenl wrote:
That is a consequence, yes. It seems a more popular choice than the health bill would be a kill off poor/unemployed bill. Until someone you know gets killed.[/quote]
Your post is a little incoherent, but I’d add that our system doesn’t kill off anyone - our system doesn’t deny care to people. Where the issue lies is the problem of medical costs beng too high. But, the care is there and available.
You have incorrect facts on health care in America - everyone gets health care. Not everyone gets insurance, and some people have to pay the full price for their care, and it is very expensive.
This is a problem - but this is the problem, not one of your myths about people being denied care.
“Perfection” isn’t the issue, individual responsibility is. These stores aren’t bankrupt because people continue to make bad choices of their own free will. Well, I’d rather they not, but they aren’t “victims” of these stores - they just are lazy or undisciplined or convinced that they can “do it if it feels good” and if things go poorly for them, they can get a pill or procedure to fix it.
We have legions of unhealthy citizens - removing their last thread of individual responsibility attached to their health by converting health care to a “right” everyone else pays for rather than a “responsibility” will only make our public health situation worse.
Need a parallel? See the housing crisis and the effect moral hazard has on people.
[quote]espenl wrote:
There seems to be a vengeance against the uninsured, and that they should be punished, because they are not a resource. The let them suffer for their inadequacy mentality. I understand in a training forum where 99.9% of the members are doing well enough, this is a common mentality.
The death to poor/unemployed/leeches was just taking it one step further. The current system is doing that passively anyway.[/quote]
You exaggerate. No one wants to exact a vengeance on the uninsured, and nowhere has anyone suggested that the truly misfortunate don’t deserve compassion or assistance.
We just happen to be realists that refuse to believe in the utopian promises of a system designed to fail - it is unsustainable.
Health care starts with prevention and individual responsibility - we remove that relationship to our doom.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
…So phuckin beat me 
[/quote]
You can count on it. It’s like breathing - it’s easy.
[/quote]
I am waiting:)[/quote]
Did you not read the replies to your post?[/quote]
Shit that didn’t hurt
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
In our system our government tells you what you pay and what you get and unless you have quite a bit of money, that is what you will get. That is a whole different ballgame.
[/quote]
I’m really curious about this. So you have a single-payer system, but private industry still exists? Or the rich leave the country?
If there’s just a private system that’s expensive, that doesn’t really seem any different that what we have in the US right now. Getting sick bankrupts people all the time.
I’m curious what you consider “quite a bit of money”, because with that, you can get good care anywhere. I wonder if the people in my country or your country, who don’t have “quite a bit of money”, get better care.
I think at some point practicality has to take precedent over ideology. If indeed single-payer (and go ahead and layer a private healthcare system for the ultra-wealthy on top) is shown to be the most cost effective way to deal with healthcare, getting, on average the best quality of healthcare, to the largest population, it seems all the free-marketeers should just hold their noses and deal with it.
I’ve gotten to the point where I think the only real effective solutions are either single-payer, or total deregulation + ban on insurance, so everyone MUST price-hunt and pay cash. That would really drive prices down, but would be an extremely messy transition. And I don’t hear anyone on the right even thinking about advocating that.[/quote]
Ok, our system works something like this:
We do not have a “single payer system” but mandatory insurance. This mandatory insurance however must be provided by “companies” that are run by the state. You are in the insurance company designated to you, when you are employed in Vienna f.E you automatically are part of the “Wiener Gebietskrankenkasse”.
Theoretically this companies would save money in bad times, in real life the government takes these monies if it needs it and the payroll taxes are raised in bad times.
However, on top of that there is private insurance which will get you better treatment. And this insurance really is on top of that, your basic insurance is still mandatory. This private insurance will get you better doctors, better rooms, and staff that actually gives a shit.
From my personal experience I can only say I over 30 when I found out that “doctors” actually listen to what your problems are instead of trying to get rid of you in 5-10 minutes or less because that is when I decided to no longer go for “free” healthcare but to pay for doctors that actually work for me instead of working for the government.
That makes a difference that you would not believe not only when it comes to results, but also cost wise, because when you factor in the pain and suffering our private doctos are actually much cheaper.
However, living in a country where most people cannot afford ( in the 7th richest country in the world!) those private doctors because the government tales away the means to do so, in part to provide “free healthcare” for everyone, most people do not know the difference because they have never seen a decent doctor in their lifes.
I also know some guys who study medicine and they work like mad to either leave the country or to open a private business that does not depend on public monies. Those that do not make it will operate on you for 2000-3000 EUR after direct taxes in a public hospital.
[quote]espenl wrote:
There seems to be a vengeance against the uninsured, and that they should be punished, because they are not a resource. The let them suffer for their inadequacy mentality. I understand in a training forum where 99.9% of the members are doing well enough, this is a common mentality.
The death to poor/unemployed/leeches was just taking it one step further. The current system is doing that passively anyway.[/quote]
But there is a difference whether some people die because they cannot afford treatment or if some people die because some bureaucrat deems that they are not worth the treatment after they have taken their money for decades for exactly such an emergency.
[quote]orion wrote:
But there is a difference whether some people die because they cannot afford treatment or if some people die because some bureaucrat deems that they are not worth the treatment after they have taken their money for decades for exactly such an emergency.
[/quote]
It seems that is what happens with some of the insured at this moment as well, they having their insurance revoked. Insurance is apparently no guarantee.
It seems your system in Austria is very suboptimal. It seems our single payer system works a bit better, but there is little money to be gained from treating chronically sick.
[quote]espenl wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
But there is a difference whether some people die because they cannot afford treatment or if some people die because some bureaucrat deems that they are not worth the treatment after they have taken their money for decades for exactly such an emergency.
[/quote]
It seems that is what happens with some of the insured at this moment as well, they having their insurance revoked. Insurance is apparently no guarantee.
It seems your system in Austria is very suboptimal. It seems our single payer system works a bit better, but there is little money to be gained from treating chronically sick.[/quote]
That is not the point.
The main point that is that yes, some people die because of lack of resources.
That happens all the time, some starve, some die of thirst and some of lack of healthcare.
However, you are acting as if that is comparable to a system where people die because a governmnet denies them access to healthcare EVEN THOUGH IT HAS TAKEN THEIR MONEY AT GUNPOINT FOR DECADES FOR EXACTLY SUCH AN EMERGENCY.
Dying because resources are scarce is a fact of life and an excellent reason to get off your ass and work so that it does not happen to you.
Dying because your government has taken all the resources away from you to deal with the problem yourself and then denying service is tantamount to murder.
You rather untilitarian approch is, well, people die anyway so let government do it.
First of all, that works the other way around too and second, in the first place we are dealing with destiny, in the second you have blood on your hands if you support such a system.
It seems Austria sucks I am not used to a system where people are denied access to healthcare. We have been a welfare state since 1967, and I was born in 1981. It is so ingrained in our culture now that we want, and make it work. It seems most of the people here wants the public healthcare in USA to crash, and they will probably succeed as well.
I still have quite a bit of resources even after taxes, but the tax systems are different in other countries, so you are probably fucked.
[quote]espenl wrote:
It seems Austria sucks I am not used to a system where people are denied access to healthcare. We have been a welfare state since 1967, and I was born in 1981. It is so ingrained in our culture now that we want, and make it work. It seems most of the people here wants the public healthcare in USA to crash, and they will probably succeed as well.
I still have quite a bit of resources even after taxes, but the tax systems are different in other countries, so you are probably fucked.[/quote]
Austria has a perfectly normal semi socialiced system like any other European nation.
I do not know where Norway is along the curve but I think you are a little behind the curve because we started in the thirties.
Sooner or later your system will have to face those problems too and someone will have to ration, by what criterion ever.
So wbat do we do when all this Norwegian wishful thinking will no longer be enough to make the system work?
You simply have a fuckload of oil that can smooth out the systemic problems.
For now, but not forever.
[quote]espenl wrote:
It seems Austria sucks I am not used to a system where people are denied access to healthcare. We have been a welfare state since 1967, and I was born in 1981. It is so ingrained in our culture now that we want, and make it work. It seems most of the people here wants the public healthcare in USA to crash, and they will probably succeed as well.
I still have quite a bit of resources even after taxes, but the tax systems are different in other countries, so you are probably fucked.[/quote]
Vengeance on the uninsured is arguing the government doesn’t have the right to force people to buy insurance? You do realize that this bill you apparently think is so compassionate for the uninsured levies taxes on those same people right?
If the healthcare system in the US crashes, EVERYONE in the WORLD loses. Anyone anywhere wanting our system to fail is an idiot that obviously doesn’t care about people and their lives. Most new medical developments, drugs, procedures, equipment, est, is developed by the private medical industry in America. We account for 82% of the r and d spending on biomedical technology IN THE WORLD. If we crash, the world will lose out on a majority a medical advancement. If people hate our system so much as to desire something so despicable, tell them to quit using any drugs, equipment, or procedures developed in the US.
What’s being lost in all this discussion of what works is the fact that what made America the unique envy of the world was precisely the relative absence of government intrusion in the private lives of citizens.
Here is the plain stark reality of the world. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Face it and own it. Under the very best and optimal state of human affairs some decent hard working people will be screwed. That might really blow, but that’s the way it is. What made our country work as well it did, which was never perfect and never could be, was that the highest number of those decent hard working people to date had been given an avenue to make a good life for themselves and their families while the minority who wouldn’t or couldn’t play were left to fend for themselves at the government level.
Once you crack open the door of institutionalized coerced “compassion” whereby an attempt is made to choke an utterly unattainable level of fairness out of a society, that society goes quickly from good for most and great for many to mediocre at best for everybody. Socialist utopians would prefer an entire world of forced mediocrity over one in which the majority rose or not in proportion to their own abilities and motivation, but some were unavoidably and unfairly passed over.
The socialist world of coerced, level mediocrity would be tragic enough even if it worked as advertised, but human nature being what it is, you have the following oversimplified groups:
1> People who will work and produce if given no other avenue of sustenance, This is probably the largest percentage of the human race.
2> People of unusually high character who will work and produce on principle regardless of circumstances. This represents a low percentage of the human race.
3> People who CAN’T work and produce who represent a very small percentage.
4> People who WON’T work and produce under any circumstances. This thankfully also represents a small percentage.
Our system of government created an environment in which the average population of group one was pulled upward with many achieving the extraordinary. The extraordinary population of group two was allowed to thrive. The disabled population of group three was cared for by the relationally responsible and private charity though imperfectly (SOME tweaking in the handling of this group MAY have been beneficial), and group four was told tough shit.
What we have done in this country, especially the last 50 years is create an environment in which multitudes are being moved from group one to group four through the provision of sustenance provided by somebody other than themselves.
Trying to force in healthcare the same mythical fairness that we have failed miserably to attain everywhere else can only make sense to somebody who’s entire reality has been formed in a classroom.
We have an open economy with export oriented growth models, relatively well adapted to conjecture fluctuations. There is little sick leave in the workforce, we have the highest percentage of women aged between 25 and 54 working in the world. And of course we love the oil Good thing we are not invaded for the oil as well.
[quote]chrillionare wrote:
Around 44% of working Americans paid no federal income tax in 2009. Deduction for mortgages, student loans, kids, cars, ext…makes it pretty easy to not pay federal income taxes assuming you are married with kids, own a house and make somewhere from 0 to 70k as a house hold income. Furthermore, many of these people actually got money back from all the credits even though they paid nothing. If on the other hand you are single, have a good job, no debt and no house then you are totally fucked up the ass. Seems a little odd that the person consuming the least amount of resources is the one fronting the bill.
You’ve got a larger and larger share of people paying less and less for the services provided by the federal government. When the majority of people can say lets have more benefits and spend more money when they are not paying shit…you have a problem…aka an “entitlement class”
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
What I don’t understand is how single payer systems exist all throughout Europe and Asia without most of the issues were talking about? These people are also some of the healthiest in the world.
Why wouldn’t it work here?[/quote]
It’s socialist man. And that’s bad, you know.
Just look at us, with entirely government paid healthcare, free education (including university level), ridicilous social benefits (I think I’ve got something like 1,500$ in schoolarschip over the last 3 years, and that is while living at home while attending a free public school. Oh and the school also gave me a laptop) and other dangerous SOCIALIST things.
Look at the results, it just doesn’t work.
Norway is not the current top-ranked nation in the UN Human Development Index. In fact we’re a totalitarian communist state, just like you will become too very soon for going down the slippery slope called SOCIALISM. Also, I will probably go to the gulag for writing this.
[quote]toolshed wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
What I don’t understand is how single payer systems exist all throughout Europe and Asia without most of the issues were talking about? These people are also some of the healthiest in the world.
Why wouldn’t it work here?[/quote]
It’s socialist man. And that’s bad, you know.
Just look at us, with entirely government paid healthcare, free education (including university level), ridicilous social benefits (I think I’ve got something like 1,500$ in schoolarschip over the last 3 years, and that is while living at home while attending a free public school. Oh and the school also gave me a laptop) and other dangerous SOCIALIST things.
Look at the results, it just doesn’t work.
Norway is not the current top-ranked nation in the UN Human Development Index. In fact we’re a totalitarian communist state, just like you will become too very soon for going down the slippery slope called SOCIALISM. Also, I will probably go to the gulag for writing this.
[/quote]
You are like Dubai.
You are not extra clever just because you won in the lottery.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]toolshed wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
What I don’t understand is how single payer systems exist all throughout Europe and Asia without most of the issues were talking about? These people are also some of the healthiest in the world.
Why wouldn’t it work here?[/quote]
It’s socialist man. And that’s bad, you know.
Just look at us, with entirely government paid healthcare, free education (including university level), ridicilous social benefits (I think I’ve got something like 1,500$ in schoolarschip over the last 3 years, and that is while living at home while attending a free public school. Oh and the school also gave me a laptop) and other dangerous SOCIALIST things.
Look at the results, it just doesn’t work.
Norway is not the current top-ranked nation in the UN Human Development Index. In fact we’re a totalitarian communist state, just like you will become too very soon for going down the slippery slope called SOCIALISM. Also, I will probably go to the gulag for writing this.
[/quote]
You are like Dubai.
You are not extra clever just because you won in the lottery.
[/quote]
HAHAHA!!! I was going to post something similar, but you put it much better than I would have.