T Nation

What's the Deal with Dairy?!?!

Bodybuilding
#1

Hey, guys. I’m in the gym the other day, and one of the guys on staff and I are discussing diet and dropping body fat. The conversation oes something like this:

Him: Just make sure you cut out all dairy.

Me: Why?

Him: Women need to cut out dairy.

Me: (Broken Record) But why? It’s high in calcium, which aids in weight loss. People who are deficient in calcium lose weight more slowly and with greater effort.

Him: I’m telling you, you need to cut out the dairy.

Me: (Broken Record) Another thing is that dairy is high in casein, a slower digesting protein that body builder usually eat at night for longer, slower release of proteing/amino acids.

Him: Yeah, but WOMEN shouldn’t eat dairy.

The bottom line is the guy couldn’t give me a reason. But it’s not the first time I’ve heard people linking higher levels of subcutaneous BF to dairy.

One possibility is that there’s probably a pretty good percentage of the population that is allergic to milk (my boyfriend has a noticable/immediate reaction to dairy). And further along this line of logic, it might be possible that a percentage of the population is “sub-allergic” (made-up word), meaning no noticable/visible/tangible signs, but with the gut and/or immune system being challenged to some lesser degree.

So what’s the word on dairy, folks? Yeah or nay? I’m really not going to be happy if I have to give up my cottage cheese before bed.

#2

I think by “dairy,” the guy just meant milk. Lactose, as a sugar, seems to refill liver glycogen stores preferentially over muscle glycogen, so it makes reliance on fat stores more difficult. There isn’t that much lactose in cottage cheese so I don’t think you have to worry about that. Anecdotally, dieting down got much easier for me once I cut milk out, but cottage cheese isn’t a problem. Hope that helps.

#3

To further the question, do you have any recommendations about the consumption of plain, natural yogurt during dieting?

#4

Think of it this way cows milk is for BABY COWS. until we become newborn cows i would say we arent supposed to drink the milk or ne product from it.

#5

I dont see any logic in the argument concerning whether you are a cow or not.

#6

Eddie has it right. The human body is not made to digest dairy foods other than during infancy, and even then it is human milk which is much higher in fat and protein. The proteins in cow-dairy, while physically available to the body, are not what the body performs best on. Eat it if you have no problems with it, but you might be better off eating meat/shakes/fish for protein instead.

#7

Check out this article: Foods That Make You Look Good Nekid it’s in Issue 172

They talked about cottage cheese, yogurt and milk.

#8

Putting all issues of allergies and toxins aside just for a sec, let’s look at milk just in terms of nutrients. Yes milk has a bunch of things that are good for you like calcium and whey/casein (again, I’m ignoring allergy issues). But milk also has an abundance of other stuff which is probably not that great, especially if you’re interested in staying lean. Namely a lot of sugar. And not just any sugar but one that is particularily prone to adding body fat. This is because lactose is used by the body to restore liver glycogen and not muscle glycogen. Once you’re liver glycogen is topped up, which is very likely if you’re diet is sufficient, then any lactose left over is just converted to fat. Bottom line: milk makes you look smooth. Then add everything else about allergies and toxins and I’d say stay away from milk.

#9

Chicken breasts are designed to make chickens fly. Eggs are supposed to turn into chickens. All meat is a muscle of some sort, whose orginal purpose was to aid in locomotion of the original owner…so? What kind of logic is that to use in the choice of foods? Will it digest and what’s in it are the main concerns. A cup of skim milk has a whopping 13 grams of carbs in it. Not exactly a Snickers bar. A cup or three of milk (yogurt is the same nutritionally) won’t make you a keg butt. If you’re ripping up for a contest it might make sense to avoid it but for the rest of the year as long as you keep track of all of your carbs and keep them in check it’s not the end of the world.

#10

I cut out all dairy starting about two months ago after attending a lecture by Dr. Rob Parker titled “The Truth About Nutrition & the Six Nutrients Everyone Needs”. Rob said basically the same thing Eddie said about dairy–it’s for cows, not humans–including milk, yogurt, cottage cheese. I’ve had to restructure my meals because I used to put yogurt in every protein shake, and ate a pound of cottage cheese every day. Now, I eat more protein powder, and have replaced the cottage cheese with a can of salmon. I used to think that cottage cheese was a better choice than portien powder because it was “a real food” versus processed food. After hearing Rob talk about the processing of dairy, it became clear to me that dairy is not “real food”, and certainly far from what it started out as from the cow. I am glad to be off dairy.

#11

Handstand your an idiot

“even then it is human milk which is much higher in fat and protein.”

get a grip, human milk has a similar fat content to cows, but MUCH lower protein (~0.9g/100ml compared to ~3.3g/100ml) and much higher carbohydrate content (~7g/100ml compared to ~4.8g/100ml)

#12

Ok so switching from cottage cheese to salmon is easy, but now we are being told that fish/salmon is not too good us for either as its high in toxins i.e mercury.

Did Dr Rob Parker mention this at all???

#13

Dr. Rob did not mention anything about toxins in fish. He lives in my area and I am going to ask him more about this. Several months ago while I was at his office he mentioned that taking fish oil was a good idea, but then told me that I would do better to phase off intake of the fish oil and stick with something like Udo’s Choice Oil Blend. He said that the processing of fish oil produces petroleum byproducts that aren’t such a good thing to ingest. I have not cut out fish oil yet, but thinking on it. There was a question session at the end of Rob’s lecture. This is when someone asked about dairy, and the only time he discussed dairy. As I listened, I began to hear one of my main protein sources rendered “not good”. So, I asked Rob what are the best sources of protein. He said beef, chicken, protein powder. He specifically did not mention fish, and no one asked about fish. Also, he cautioned that today’s supermarket beef and chicken contain harmful growth hormones, especially chicken which is worse than beef. So, beef supplemented with protein powder is his best choice. He told me to do the best I could with getting quality, non-hormone meat, but in the end just do my best because perfection may not always be possible; today’s marketplace is not concerned with making people healthy. Then he said that eating all that beef won’t be much benefit if you can’t digest it, which tied back to his lecture where he discussed the importance of supplementing with proper plant enzymes for digestion. The importance of plant enzymes was one of the key points I learned. Just FYI, the six essential nutrients he said everyone needs are: pure plant enzymes, stabilized probiotics, whole-food vitamins, amino acid chelated minerals, antioxidants, and essential fatty acids. I switched my multi-vitamin because it was not “whole-food” (it was synthetic, which can be harmful; one symptom - turns your pee yellow).

#14

Thank you, everyone for your input!!!

Burnsy & Pluto, thank you for the explanation about lactose filling liver glycogen stores. I knew that about honey and fructose, but not lactose. That’s a key bit of information when it comes to timing and making smart food choices.

I keep my carbs right at 100g per day, 49 of which is my Surge post-recovery drink. The half cup of cottage cheese I eat only has 3g of carbs (lactose sugar carbs, I’m sure). Since I eat it in the evening as my first solid meal after my workout and before I go to bed, damage is probably kept to a minimum; i.e., liver glycogen levels are probably lowest post workout and upon waking in the morning.

I think food variety becomes ever more critical to health and achieving our goals. I haven’t switched to organic chicken yet (has antibiotics and hormones). I still eat tuna (according to Mercola, high in mercury and PCBs). And my cottage cheese is only able to refill liver glycogen before being stored as fat. Yet, I’m finally getting enough protein and getting it every three hours. I eat very little to no sugar, flour or processed carbs. I hope a year from now that I’ll have taken my diet and training (and discipline) to an even higher level.

Thank you again, everyone, for sharing your knowledge and your personal experiences. The debate, pro and con was really helpful to me. Moving forward, I’ve taken something from both camps.

#15

Interesting to hear his thoughts on on fish oil, and switching to udo’s, i always went down the fish oil route as my omega 6 intake is high enough already. His essential 6 are rather weird too especiallly the pure plant enzymes, stabilized probiotics, whole-food vitamins. AS after reading one of John Berardi’s arricles a couple of months ago, i thought he’d burried the enzyme supplements for me, as he said they were overrated. Also whole food vitamins - i believe these may be called food state vitamins here in the UK - does this really make a difference??? and why the pro biotics - surely you would take them only after youve had a load of anti biotics or have been feeling a bit crappy.

#16

Regarding the plant (digestive) enzymes, my thinking was about the same as yours – not necessary. After Rob’s speech I changed my mind. Rob explained that the primary source of these enzymes-—balls of energy that break food apart into indiv. molecules-—is from the food we eat, and chewing the food releases these enzymes. However, if you are not eating a raw plant you are not getting enzymes. The body only has a limited store of enzymes for digestion and these get depleted with age, bad diet, etc. He said the body is designed to rely primarily on the enzymes within the food to break it down (example: a fruit will naturally ripen b/c of presence of enzymes). He described how food can sit and literally rot in the digestive tract; talked about the number one drug is for digestive/gastro problems; enzyme depletion causes disease (pasteurization and lactose intolerance, denatured if heated over 112 deg, processed, refined, cooked, etc.). At one point he opened two packs of chocolate pudding and broke a digestive enzyme tablet in one; did nothing to the other. He stirred each with a spoon to simulate digestion and poured them out. One was soupy/lumpy, and one wouldn’t pour/too solid. I don’t recall all the benefits he covered about probiotics, but that most people are deficient in good bacteria due to antibiotics, stress, alcohol, carbonation, which kills good bacteria, and everyone needs them. The part about whole food vitamin was an eye-opener for me. Whole food, food source supplement is made by using whole, raw foods and removing the water and fiber; contain all the vitamins, enzymes, compounds, co- and synergistic micronutrients that naturally occur in the raw food; processed at a temp below 112 deg F; dehydrated and/or freeze-dried for preserving. The organic nutrients we have come to know as vitamins do not work alone, they work synergistically in concert with enzymes, co-enzymes, precursors, antioxidants, trace elements, activators and numerous other known and unknown micronutrients. The other two types of vitamin supplements (the bad ones) are 1) fractionated vitamins – made by exposing foods to chemicals, solvents, and heat; distilling out and destroying virtually all of the co-factors and enzymes; leaves only organic nutrient or crystalline vitamin 2) Synthetic vitamins – made in lab by producing the organic nutrient (sometimes called the crystalline vitamin molecule); many are constructed or synthesized primarily from corn sugar and non-food compounds such as coal tar. Synthetic example: ascorbic acid – the organic nutrient of vit C. Other examples: flavonoids, rutin, J and K factor, delta, alpha, beta, gamma – tocopherol (most stuff you can’t pronounce, or recognize as a food/plant source). Synthetic molecules spin in the opposite direction of organic nutrients and can not take part in the necessary chemical reactions. A whole food vit sup will list the actual foods from which vitamins in the product came (word “natural” and “organic” means nothing). I have condensed much here. Rob’s main message was to obey the laws of nature; keep food in its natural state (which is the opposite of the mainstream American diet). Rob is a smart guy, but more than that he’s a real T-Man; lifts weights like a maniac; built and lean. He’s also a chiropractor and does a lot of work with the Dallas Cowboys.

#17

cool post. Thanks for the info, i’d like to get more info. can u direct me to his website, if he has one. or any other info/website

#18

For quality whole food supplements go to whole-isticsolutions.com. Wholeistic Solutions and it’s products were introduced very recently. This website has only been up for a few weeks, and more info is to be added.

#19

I’m no expert on nutrition, but if you want to cut out all dairy from your diet you’re also going to have to cut out your protein powders since they are also a dairy product because whey and casein are both milk proteins.

#20

Michael Young has it right - protein powders are typically made up of about 4 ingredients: whey, casein, egg, and soy. So MBH & Eddie, if you’re really trying to eliminate milk you should take a good look at the ingredient list on those protein powders…

There are non-dairy p. powders out there, including veggie proteins that are non soy (like rice, pea, etc), but they take some label reading to find.