T Nation

What's The Best Stack


...under these conditions??

P.S. This is a repost of my first post ever here, but, gives you all the info. Without further adu....

I just started working out. I was 118 at 5'8 about 6 weeks ago. I started drinking 2-3 beers a night and eating fish sticks. I was playing with my gut and feeling fat, I do have a fat patch/utter for my skinnyness, so I decided to see how much I weighed.

I was at a shocking 126lbs which was amazing seeing as how for the past 30-some years I was 116 average no matter what I ate. I decided to get back on my 2000 calorie drink mix, eat all I could stomach, drink beer and work out useing the Russian Bear meathod with some fillers here and there.

I am now, according to my works health scale, 138!! Wow, I am stoked! The first workout I did, I could not walk and it took a week to recover. Now, I can work hard and be 2 days off a body part. In fact, as of last workout, I could a full body workout and still be ready to go.

I just dont have enough time to exhaust by whole body in one hour, I am that adapted already. I have started to use Surge this week and think this will make me have to change my Russian Bear workout to a "workout of one body part everyday using the 5 reps to bad form and stop theory".

After this, I want to change into a more exhaustive but thurough workout, something that will work both fast and slow twich fibers.

Then, I want the "GEAR" because its all balls to the wall after that!! By this time I am assuming, and when it does, that my 1 hour workout will do no more and my gains will be slow to no. I will then make a workout that will work a body part a day and work the hell out of it fatieging it to hell and back.

The roid or stack of choice will, and not in this order (hell, I dont know if there is something that will do "all" of this), put on as much weight, doesnt matter what but preferably meat, as possible during the cycle, STAY on my bones the longest and not shrink my weenie too much. Its big enough that I can lose an inch and it wont matter to me.

What would be good to go with if it were you or advice you would give to someone?


The roid or stack of choice will, and not in this order (hell, I dont know if there is something that will do "all" of this), put on as much weight, doesnt matter what but preferably meat, as possible during the cycle, STAY on my bones the longest and not shrink my weenie too much. Its big enough that I can lose an inch and it wont matter to me.


Oh dear God, this thread is about to get good..


Well, I found this and this looks good. I cant belive it was the 3rd post I read, BUT, I have soooooo much more re-reading to do. This is not going to be an over night thing, as I am, ahem, gearing up for this.

Here it is..

"Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat.

Novice... TREN/D-BOL....

Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.

Two days after last tren do clomid at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.

Have nolva or clomid on hand for gyno protection.

More advanced...200 of tren on day one as a front load to get tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above


D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.
One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks.

Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the liver.
D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite in the old days and produced excellent gains.

Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.


You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!
Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers.

Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.
Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.

Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your shitty hdl level.
NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the liver so never use it with acutane which is hard on the liver. You really should have liver panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially liver panels... and psa for us older guys)

And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.

Best of gains and health to you all."


I dont even know what to say, I mean you seem like you are the least likely person that needs to be taking steroids on the forums. If you cant get to 160 naturally then something is seriously wrong with you. Steroids are not something in your even near future.

You need to educate yourself on what kind of eating and training it takes to get big and strong. I thought you were joking till I checked out your other posts about the subject.


I wish tiny little TROLLS like these would just go the FUCK away. Keep with your shitty diet and worthless workouts and stay the fuck off the steroid forum you shit for brains moron!!


This guy must be a troll.
Nobody could be that stupid....I hope.


Ive been wanting to say this for a long time, and I think this is finally the time to say it TUBE STEAK BOOGIE


You all know nothing about who I am, what my Genetics are, what I have done in the past, and what I plan to do (no, what I listed is not a plan, it an "IDEA", you know nothing about me.

To not even ask me questions and just bash the crap out of me shows me the IQ level of people here. Thats cool though, I dont care, just shows not many made it past the 4th grade, and that is sad because this place could use "educated" adults, beides Tim and the like.

I have made gains in 6 weeks I have never done before in my life. If you dont want to help someone in the right direction, thats cool. If you want to try to bash someone, fawkin grow up.


The point here is that you have been lifting ONLY 6 WEEKS. If you think you are ready for steroids after 6 whole weeks of lifting you are the severely uneducated one here. Beer and fishsticks? Fat patch/utter? Gimme a break!


This is either the funniest post I've ever read or, now that it appears it may be serious, perhaps the saddest post I've ever read. Either way it's damn funny....in a sad sorta way.


Are you honestly surprised by the responses you received? You claim to have been here for a long time yet by your posts it doesn't appear that you have read much. Anyway, everything that has been said is true. You are not someone who is a prime candidate for steroids. No matter what you think, you body has not reached some kind of peak in the short time you have exercised. To save you from more deserved bashing I will point you to these threads. Read them.(Sorry in advance if the links need to be cut and pasted)

Vroom's Beginner Thread


And since your life is so busy.

Dan John's One Lift a Day


And this isn't some kind of great advice I'm offering, it's just common sense. If you had actually taken the time to read around this site, you would see these same links recommended over and over and over again. Now go do your homework.


These links have got to be the best info I have read so far.
I don't want to inflate your ego's any more than they may all ready be but you guys giving the advice are "dialed in".
I'm so glad I found this site.
Thanks to all who responded.



I thought you all would give me the benifit of the doubt first, but I see which direction you all like to jump to. I was trying to avoid a long post, but, since you all took it the wrong way, let me reiterate.

1) I sat on my ass eating fishsticks and beer cause, well, I gave up trying to gain weight and decided to be skinny all my life.

2) I DO have a fat patch/utter... Its the most fawked up thing I have ever seen. Pure muscle (and not much of it) everywhere else on my body with NO fat except there in my gut.

3) Finding out that I gained by eating a bunch of stupid fishsticks and beer gave me inspiration to do something. If my body was actually changing, I needed to make a move!

4) Went on this site again (yes, I have been here since the begining, I got one of the first mags they ever gave a way free) and dug for a week deciding what work out to use, which was from here, the "Russian Bear". Judging from someones post, I think they need to PM the writer of that program and tell "him" it is "worthless" and "take a hike"??

4) Changed my diet to inclide weight gain powders, Surge, and LOTS of good meats, carbs and fruits. Yes, I have my 1 beer a night and fishticks still(they have worked so far) but they are fillers added to my new diet of GOOD foods like meats and pasta along with lots of fruits that come first.

5) Got off my lazy ass and went to the gym and have been busting my balls with weights, no sissy cardio or 10lbs for 1000 reps either, heavy shit!

6) My genetics are bad, very bad. I know I can make natural weight, up to a point. I am5'8 but my chest to back is only like 12" thick, nasty genetics. My father and his father are bones, I dont see geting past 130, but I have. How far I will go, I dont know but 145 is really an unrealistc goal with my genetics but MY goal is 160.

7) Am I going to use steroids tomarrow? HELL NO!! I might not ever use them. I do know there will come a time when I will stop advancing, when my body stagnates no matter WHAT I do. This is the time that "could" be the turning point to help.

8) So, do I wait to learn about stuffing a needle in my body and start experiemnting while learning? I do not want ot be poking at my body just because I am ready. Smarts and logic would tell me to ask questions, learn what I need to know, as if I was to do it now. Who knows, by then I will know what my body is doing and WILL know wheather I need it or not.

9) Last but not least, I am not a dumb ass ready to jump on the gear bandwagon by shoving shit into me. As a matter of fact, that is the last thing I EVER want to do is shove something in a needle into my body. I actually do not see how YOU all can do it. Fact is though, if it is something I need to do in the future to get my gains, I will do it. All I am looking for is constructive advice to let me make my own choice's.


Holy shit, you have to be kidding me, right? You want the best stack you can get? Eat 5000 calories a day with at least 300 grams of protien and lift your balls off for about 4 or 5 years, then let me know what your genetics are like!

Make your own choices, do your own research. You don't need to ask stupid questions to get something you want. Bottom line, your lazy. You don't want to learn about steroids, you want someone to lay out a cycle for you and explain why it's "the best stack". You don't want to gain weight, you want to drink beer and eat fishticks.



Yes, I can be lazy but no, I am not depending on roids to make up for any slack. I asked "what do you think" would be a good stack". With that info, I could be driected towards looking into what makes it good MYSELF and weigh the pros and cons of it. As long as i am making gains, I have no interst in "shooting" them. If gains are made 1, 2, 3, 4 years thats all fine, then I dont need them.

People use roids for a few reasons, to add muscle when stalled and to help build muscle, or actually recover faster, when doing extreme workouts.

Also, it is said that after an hour of working out, the body is depleted and there are really no more gains, for a time, from working out longer. Not sure what is closer to the truth because I have read so much conflicting views on workouts "here on this board" from top trainers.

Trust me, I am resarching it all trying to weed it all out. I have to start asking questions some where to get a good direction for investigating. It is because of all the conflicting things I read I ask this.

Well, now that I think of it, if I am gaining 3 years from now, this question will be obsolete. I guess under those conditions, I can just retract my question for now.


i say this question could have and should have been avoided in the first place.
most of the guys are annoyed because you have not provided any information about you that could even potentially warrant you discussing ''the juice''.
you have also came across as very hard headed and not ready to listen to negative opinion......life is never plane sailing....so you should expect to be knocked back as many times as get your way. learn from this experience - even if you disagree with the opinions presented before you - be humble enough and think for a moment.....maybe these guys are onto something good here ....maybe i should look deep within myself? maybe there's a message there - and the one that i see as an insult and an assault on my IQ....maybe just maybe ....things don't appear the way they trully are....turn negative into positive and you will always be better off.....

regarding your attitude toward some coaches here......i think you could PM them yourself and tell them that they are ''full of shit'' and that they training doesn;t work.....as obviously evident by your extenssive training experience (i'm sure you keep food and training log so you can make a very educated decision that they training programs are worth squat).

i personally have been researching the subject at hand for a long time....i have some questions....then again...if i need to ask(after i looked for info myself and made up some sort of opinion about it)- i have few bros only PM away .....and the reason i can get the lengthy answer with some good info - you guessed it - i was always respectful of they opinion and tried my hardest to get the answers myself.

in any case.....to sum up....if you feel happy about what is going on in your physical transformation life - carry on .....fish sticks and beer is not a food of champions :)) but it might do wonders for you.....i would certainly doubt that you trully realise the potential for you to grow just by eating a lot of quality food......if you started gain so much weight so quickly from beer and fishsticks...then you were not eating enough calories before....now that you got more calories - weight goes up:) simple really

regading your gut getting bigger - you might be intolerant to grain(in which case your small/large intestines can get inflamed). this will reflexively shut down your abdominal wall and it wil make your gut look big...at the same time you might be retaining a lot of fluid as a result of leaky gut syndrome (easily caused by your alcohol consumption).

i would certainly keep execise and food diary, so that i can make an educated decision about my progress.
''bustin your balls''for 6 weeks doesn;t really count in anyones books....good start - but that's it....

get couple of years of consistent training....get couple of years of consistent(high calorie-high quality) eating.......order few books on the net......or even better....look through the gazzilion pages available on the net.......and then you can ask very specifi question about compounds you chose for your cycle ....quantity...length of time...PCT ....and what not....

this way people will give you tim of the day.....and you'll benefit much more

pheewww....appologies about the long post :slightly_smiling:



No, no need to apologize, I will not accept it :slight_smile: . Thank you for taking the time to post a long post like that, I appreciate it.

Everyone in the WORLD could have said "no, dont do it" and I would take the hint. If they were confused as to who I was or needed specifics as to my deal is or where I was in life, I would have answered, if they asked.

I know today I am not ready. Fishsticks and beer got me started, now its protien shakes, meats, pasta, Surge and fruit that is my 95% diet. 1 beer and 10 fish sticks a night aint gonna kill me, on top of what I eat.

I am learning and using what is here. I already stick to the 7 rules pretty darn good, not perfect of course.

To say I dont listen to negativity is totaly wrong, and I dont care about getting bashed, but to listen to

when I come for advice, is full on trailer park trash.

I was talking about the colorful quote above. I said I am using the Russian Bear program. Trailer park trash mouth with the 2nd grade educational level said, and I quote, "worthless workouts and stay the fuck off the steroid forum".

I was reffering to HIM bashing the coaches regimines on here. I mean it is cool and all cause it just showes I am more evolved that he is. I was expecting some bashing but damn, I wasnt quite expecting that on this site, lol.


"Yes, I can be lazy but no, I am not depending on roids to make up for any slack."

Okay Tim, Listen. Read the quote above that you wrote, then think about why you are not gaining or growing. AAS isn't the quick way to grow. You still have to have a good diet and you need to lift hard and heavy in the gym.

So maybe someone directs you to a decent stack, and you spend about $400.00. Are you stil going to drink beer and eat fishsticks? It doesn't work that way. I believe that you really need to be more dedicated toward diet and intense lifting.

You have to push yourself to grow. I don't think you're pushing hard enough.

Think about it, google, and good luck.



Nooooo, I am not lazy to get into the gym, just the opposite as a matter of fact. The Russian Bear program has you working out 3 days a week and heavy, but 5reps repeated over and over til one of the reps show bad form.

I am so un-lazy that I have been sneaking in tuesdays and wednsdays when I should be taking off. There are days I cant wait to go, cept for leg day, feeeeeel the burn!!

And I definatly dont like lifting light. I had one guy actually comment to me and was surprised I used such big weights. But really, it aint so much weight for a bag of bones beginner like me, lol. I mean come on, 90lbs squats? What the hell is that??? Eh, all I can do for now and makes me walk funny. More weight will come in due time, its actually going up now.


How many cals are you taking in per day?

Protein shakes?