What's Strong for a Natural?

It’s kind of like when you have well behaved kids, people are like: you’re so lucky! I’m like: no we are disciplined and teach our kids to do what we tell them!

AND - you are probably similar to me with small joints and (for me) weak tendons and easily injured. If I could have not gotten injured - would be way stronger and probably would have been much better at track than I ever got.

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I agree with you about points 1 and 2… and 3. I admit that what I said was dumb , but your tone sounds like you’re butthurt. I miss when people argued about things in a logical way , not by being offended and shitty things like that.

There is no way to say this without sounding harsh, but you are 16. When you say you miss when people argued this way, how far back are you referencing?

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Agreed. We covered this at length in the can-any-man-deadlift-600 thread, but what you said here bears repeating:

twojarslave’s first reply of that thread was great: most (able-bodied) men possess the “genetic potential” to deadlift 600 pounds, but to do so, they would have to do the things necessary to deadlift 600 pounds, and most people don’t want anything to do with that bullshit.

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After watching @T3hPwnisher in his competition I’m convinced he’s not gifted. He’s both mentally and physically strong as heck, but he could clearly use some extra height and longer arms for that stones of steel event :wink:

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No joke. Although my arm length is actually pretty ridiculous for my height, which makes deadlifting easier and pressing harder (you can observe both in the same video).

But then there is a contingent out there claiming that being SHORT is actually some sort of genetic advantage in strength sports, and it just blows my mind.

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Perhaps the greatest genetic gift is being wired in such a way that you take the actions necessary to get as strong as you possibly can. I’d put that right up there with being short or Samoan.

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My interaction with you and checking out your log along with @littlesleeper and Alpha have opened my eyes to your strongman world. In the weight room being short is an advantage but taking that strength outside is the equalizer.

I saw a mix of attributes that would be beneficial in your recent competition. Long arms good for the stone and deadlifts, bad for the hammers and possibly circus dumbbell.

Yeah, strongman does a decent job of finding a way to make things even. Stones punish the short, but 18" deadlifts reward it. Yoke rewards being fatter, while a carry medly punishes it. Etc.

In most cases, it’s still better to be taller, as it means more room to hold more weight, which means a greater potential to be stronger without compromising mobility, but you gotta play the hand you’re dealt. Weight classes help.

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I actually presented a sound, complete argument for my point on 3. I just did it in a harsh way, because what you said was dumb. I’m never butt hurt. I am certainly aggressive.

I’ll also agree with what pwnisher is saying about the genetic gifts comments that people dole out and pretend aren’t insulting. Most people who say such things can’t actually fathom the work that some of us put into the gym. I don’t necessarily believe pwnisher is genetically gifted at all, lol.

As for myself, I have a major genetic gift, and a major genetic hurdle. The gift is my metabolism. Although it makes it really hard for me to gain weight, I stay lean all the time, and I really can eat garbage all day without getting fat. I have to consider that a gift. My biggest hurdle is my awful, small joints. Wrists and ankles specifically. I’ve had problems with my joints my whole life. My ankles literally click when I walk every single day of my life. My wrists pop all the time. My shitty joints make me much more suited for physique-oriented competition than strength-competition. I think small wrists can make arms look larger, but that doesn’t help me much in the strongman department, lol.

The bottom line, though, is most people who are born with my genetic ‘gifts’ are more likely to look like steven tyler their whole life, rather than do what I’ve done. My whole family is skinny. nobody looks athletic or strong. I’m an outlier in my family, not because I somehow have vastly different genetics than my family members, but because of the things I’ve done to exploit the positives of my genetics, and overcome my genetic shortcomings.

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This. I can overlap my thumb on my middle finger around my wrists. My wrists and ankles seem to get injured more than anything. And it sucks when you have the capacity to.go heavier and harder, but you can’t. It doesn’t help much in real life either so I’ve done wrist strengthening exercises and real life work most of my “lifting career”

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THIS physically I’m a very regular guy, but I have the mentality that makes doing what is necessary much easier. I attribute what progress I’ve made to that more than anything.

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Obviously opinions will vary but mine is

180/275/365/455

I doubt many could argue that a 180lb natural trainer would not be strong with those numbers

Extremely strong and a good benchmark to chase after reaching the above would be what I consider the holy frail

200/300/400/500

Again, opinions will vary

I think referring 2/3/4/5 as the “holy grail” puts too low of a ceiling on what a natty can strive for, but I agree that it’s a good benchmark for a strong individual. Just wouldn’t go as far as to say “extremely” strong. If the context was compared to the average joe, maybe. But the OP is in the context of natty lifters.

I agree and disagree
I’m using a natural 180lb lifter on avg
To hit those numbers above a man would need some time training. I’m sure we both agree that is correct, so I’m assuming our “avg” guy is likely weighing roughly 155lbs at start.
On avg… to take a relatively weak man weighing from 155lbs to 180lbs and hit the numbers we’re talking about…
You’re damn right I think 200/300/400/500 is extremely strong as an avg.
Again, mine is just my opinion

I’m really quite intrigued by this question on two levels.

First: why does it matter? Isn’t it more important to improve yourself as much as possible regardless of what others are doing? Especially as a bodybuilder, when the important thing is to look good rather than lift more.

Second: on a practical level, 2/3/4/5 for a 180 lbs (why 180 lbs?) natural doesn’t sit quite right with me. Because this guy is a BBer, I’m guessing he’s quite lean, so that’s mostly muscle. I’m just under five pounds over that and reasonably lean, and I’m not massively far from the 2/3 part and well beyond the 4/5. Granted I’m not a BBer, but those levels just seem too low to be ‘strong’ for me. Not weak, certainly. Stronger than the average Joe on the street, absolutely. But actually strong? I’d say 2/3/5/6 or 2.25/3.25/4.5/5.5 would fit the bill, taking into account some being better at pressing and benching and some at squatting a and DL. I ALSO think a BB row should be factored in, and be around three plates for over five reps. Lastly, I think being somewhere in that range is strong if you sit between 180 to 220 lbs. I know it’s a big margin, but I’ve been at both ends and honestly, the only really major difference was in my press and bench. At close to 220 lbs at my current level of leanness, I would expect my press and bench to be well over 2 and 3 as I was within 10 lbs of both when I was a fat 225 lbs.

In terms of holy grail, for me 3/4/7/7 is it, for anywhere between 180-220 lbs. Even up to 275 lbs or so those are damn respectable numbers.

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So much this ^^^

Strong is a relative word.

Wanna see whose strong at 3 technically difficult barbell lifts. Look at powerlifters.

Wanna see whose strong at awkward and exhausting activities? Look up strongman records

Wanna see whose strong at weirder exercises than that? Look up oddlifting.

I’m by no means strong by any of these measurements, yet in arguably the most physical jobs (construction/landscaping /Furniture making and delivery) I am as strong as I will ever need to be to complete these jobs in the ‘real’ world.

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I know you’ve acknowledge the stupidity of this statement, but can I ask how much you can press and clean(not a power clean)?

Wait, this isn’t normal? My elbows, ones, wrists, ankles, neck, all make weird noises.

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Everyone has forgotten one very important thing here: we are not average!

2/3/4/5 is damn strong by average standards.
Maintaining sub 20% body fat is not average (especially in America).

We all strive to be outliers in society. But once we get together and start comparing ourselves we find that most of us are average (b/c we’re similar) and there are some who have achieved great things making our accomplishments seem a little less impressive.

Let’s be real. If you’re working full time, married, have kids etc and you meet these “standards” then I’d say you’re winning at life. The longer you maintain or even progress the more impressive it is. I’d rather maintain my current status til I’m 50, 60, 70 years old than hit some phenomenal milestone and then fall apart and become a fat, sloppy, has been.

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