T Nation

What's Going Right in Iraq

vroom,

You ought to not let this board get to you man, you are sounding less like a liberal and more like someone who needs some special attention. :slight_smile:

“The day I am an elected official and I answer to the public, that is the day I will worry about what the ass clown publc wants me to act like.”

Yikes!

How many times can vroom say “ass clown” in one post? Get your entries in folks the contest will begin soon!

Hey vroom tell me how calling you a liberal, or even questioning what you have stated in previous threads is actually lower than your current nutty antics? Your new low is surprising yet most entertaining!

The fact that I think you are a liberal in your political beliefs is fair game on a political Forum. You can call me an “ass clown” a fathead or any other childish name that you can muster. However, you are the one who is straying from the (political) issues with this nonsense.

You are also entertaining not only me, but from the PM’s I have been getting apparently many others as well. You have gone from being the political Forums favorite liberal to …um well let’s just say something quite a bit less!

Please continue. :slight_smile:

Vroom, just ignore him it’s never gonna stop and he revels in your discomfort over it. Zeb has some very passive aggressive childish undertones about him.

If the “liberal media” can’t be trusted neither can any of the articles BB posts. His sources are on the other end of the spectrum. Bahgdad could be going up in flames and BB would be like Nero playing his violin. No offense BB, but it’s true.

Now that were in it I hope we are indeed winning and that we stabilize the country the sooner the better. How many years were we in Vietnam? How many years were the Russians in Afganhistan? Both times superior firepower was outdone by guerilla warfare. All they have to do is continue their war of attrition. Time is on their side. That’s not being a pessimist that’s just reality.

No worries Elk, Zeb is barking up the wrong tree.

He’s welcome to his games. I’m not sure how many times he wants me to say I’m liberal.

It just shows that he feels my opinion needs countering somehow. I guess that is some type of bizarre compliment.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1115171589890.bush.JPG

[quote]JeffR wrote:
JusttheFacts, Moriarty,

Did you guys hear about the statue that the Baghdad mayor wanted to erect?

It was called the statue of freedom.

Guess who the likeness will be?

W.

Have a great four years!!!

JeffR[/quote]

I don’t know if I’d really call that a statue Jeffy.

BTW here is a list of essentials you will need to help you survive when you get called up.

THE NO-BULL LIST: What You Need in Iraq
By SFC Dillard J. Johnson
Soldier of Fortune Magazine

It is the second year after my unit, 3/7th CAV of the 3rd ID, fought its way from Kuwait to Baghdad during Operation Iraqi Freedom, and major fighting was declared over.

OIF may be over, but the war in Iraq has merely changed faces and is going as strong as ever. Army and Marine units who spearheaded OIF have either returned to, or have been given a heads-up for redeployment to, Iraq.

I will be heading back over to Iraq shortly. The following is a critique of what equipment worked for us there that we will be sure to take back, and what gear we could have put to good use, had it been available, that we will take with us this time, for sure. Old friends from Iraqi Freedom and I tested and talked up a lot of new items on the market for the fighting GI – the good, the bad, the ugly. We will only mention the good stuff here – the items that we would need to take back with us this time to help accomplish the mission and return home to our families.

Analysis: U.S. back to stage one in Iraq
By Martin Sieff
UPI Senior News Analyst

Washington, DC, May. 2 (UPI) – The most sobering aspect of the ongoing wave of terror in Iraq is not that things have changed, but that they haven’t.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050502-045347-6429r.htm

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Vroom, just ignore him it’s never gonna stop and he revels in your discomfort over it. Zeb has some very passive aggressive childish undertones about him.

(On cue vrooms bodyguard steps in to stop his man from furhter hurting himself, this time pretending to be a Psychologist.)

Thank you for the analysis “Dr. Elk.” However, you are no better at analyzing people than you are political situations.

vroom:

Was an admission that you are a liberal? If so, I could be wrong as I have not read all of your posts, but this is the first time that you have admitted to that. For that I commend you! I think the issue is now finally resolved.

BB:

I think you hit on a great topic, and one that sends liberals off the deep end. If only we would have failed in Iraq then they could have wagged the proverbial finger and stated in their sanctimonious tone: “I told you this would happen.”

Yes…we are winning and that is great news for all Americans and freedom loving people across the globe.

I never had any doubts that the US would indeed be able to carry forth it’s mission in Iraq. Naturally there were going to be detractors. You don’t turn a dictatorship into a democracy overnight. While we are not out of the woods yet there has been an definite reduction of American lives being lost, as the Iraqi people take control of their own destiny.

What is also interesting is that even the press has had to report on some of the positive happenings in Iraq. As the following report (from Chrenkoff) states: “Either there is more good news coming out of Iraq or the reporters are getting increasingly optimistic about the situation there, or both…”

"Good news from Iraq, Part 23
Note: Is the situation in Iraq getting better? It’s not really up to me to answer that question, but I can try to answer another one: is reporting from Iraq getting better? To find out, I decided to look back at the past installments of this series and do a little count. For the sake of simplicity I started with Part 6, which happened to be the first one to be also published by the “Opinion Journal”. When printed out, that July 19, 2004 edition of “Good news from Iraq” is 10 and a half pages long, and contains links to 71 “good news” stories. Since then, the length of each installment has fluctuated, but the overall trend has been up. So much so that the “Good news from Iraq” you’re reading now is 23 and a half pages long and contains 178 links to “good news stories.”

The same trend in evident in my “Good news from Afghanistan”. The first installment published by the “Opinion Journal” (and second overall in the series) of July 26, 2004, was 6 and a half pages long when printed out and contained 55 links. The latest one, number 10 of March 7, 2005, is 19 pages long and contains 124 links.

Either there is more and more good news coming out of both Iraq or Afghanistan, or the reporters are getting increasingly optimistic about the situation there, or both. Whatever’s the answer, it’s good news."

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/03/good-news-from-iraq-part-23.html

Oh yeah, Zeb, “people are PMing me and agreeing with me,”. Pretty adult of you. Doesn’t seem like a T-man would need to try and brag that he has a coalition behind him. As far as the view on the topic of this thread, I will say this, I hope you are right and it is moving in our direction. Laters Zebster, Elk

Zeb,

I’m glad you actually figured out how to post something on topic for a change. That is certainly a hurdle that we’ve passed.

Something you seem to have missed, perhaps willfully, is that liberals and republicans both want things to work out well in Iraq. This has been stated over and over again in a myriad of threads ever since the invasion.

However, criticism or analysis of government actions is a completely appropriate course of action. It should be and will be done no matter what flavor of administration is sitting in office.

It is unfortunate that you have to mischaracterize that as well. Statements such as “liberals” want us to fail and so on paints too broad a swatch. It is actually possible that there are foolish extremists that have this position, perhaps to balance yourself and your good friend JeffR, but I don’t think I’ve seen any of them on these forums.

As it is, progress has been slow and hard and at great cost. There are legitimate questions about why we went in and whether or not it was actually worth going in. The fact you have different opinions than others on some of these issues doesn’t make those that ponder the items against anything.

Do you want to know what I really want? I want the Iraqi government to be able to become self supportive. I want the Iraqi police and army to impose appropriate controls over their own territory and populace. I want them, the people of Iraq, to become democratic and successful participants in the international arena. I want the men and women of the military to be taken out of harms way.

Strangely, if the above can and does happen, it frees up the US military to get involved in situations like Iran or North Korea if necessary. While I am very much against putting the young men and women of American in harms way without good reason, or under the winds of flagrant fear mongering, I am cognizant that they represent a legitimte tool of diplomacy and enforcement when used judiciously.

I don’t know how in the hell you can reconcile these statements with your mischaracterizations of my beliefs, but I’m sure you will find some way to do so.

P.S. You do understand the difference between liberal and libertarian, don’t you Zeb?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,
It is unfortunate that you have to mischaracterize that as well. Statements such as “liberals” want us to fail and so on paints too broad a swatch. It is actually possible that there are foolish extremists that have this position, perhaps to balance yourself and your good friend JeffR, but I don’t think I’ve seen any of them on these forums.

As it is, progress has been slow and hard and at great cost. There are legitimate questions about why we went in and whether or not it was actually worth going in. The fact you have different opinions than others on some of these issues doesn’t make those that ponder the items against anything.
[/quote]

This is very true. I have asked before, exactly how has this benefitted us in the greatest way? We have lost many lives in this war on top of the ones lost in 9/11 and we still don’t have the main man responsible.

Giving Iraq democracy is an intent that I seriously doubt was on anyone’s mind just ten years ago and I ponder that if someone had walked up to any average American in 1990 and asked them if giving Iraq democracy is worth a few hundred American lives that anyone would have said, “Let’s go in now!”.

My attitude, as someone who might end up over there, is to finish a job we started and to finish it well. That doesn’t mean I agree with the reasons that sent us in originally. Some of you need to quit this ridiculous BS and characterization as if you don’t understand what is being written in plain english. Not one person on these forums, to my knowledge, has written that they hope Iraq falls apart. To even imply that when it has not been stated is a bullshit attempt to ignore what those with opposing view points just might be saying.

Also, I was listening to Imus this morning and he had a radio host on who stated that in all of this, where are the young Iraqui men all fighting for democracy? He went on to describe how we have fought for freedom in this country several times under our own initiative yet there don’t seem to be the millions ready to take over in the name of democracy in the same fashion. Are we to hold these people’s hands until they live like its Arkansas just which much more sand?

Further, exactly when will Iraq be doing so well that there won’t need to be any articles trying to convince us of how well it is going?

Zeb,

Only respond to Vroom if you are willing to not read his meandering replies. It’s more fun that way. You can’t get him to take a stand on anything except not liking W and America. When you call him out on that directly he’ll sometimes equivocate about that.

“I AM ONLY WELL-LIKED AND INTERESTING ON AN INTERNET FORUM!”

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, I was listening to Imus this morning and he had a radio host on who stated that in all of this, where are the young Iraqui men all fighting for democracy? He went on to describe how we have fought for freedom in this country several times under our own initiative yet there don’t seem to be the millions ready to take over in the name of democracy in the same fashion. Are we to hold these people’s hands until they live like its Arkansas just which much more sand?

[/quote]

They are lining up to serve in the thousands. For instance, during one of the most deadly attacks yet, when around a hundred policemen who were waiting to enlist were killed or wounded by a truck bomb, the NEXT DAY reporters said that the line had tripled in size.

You just don’t read about that on the front page because it’s not as interesting as the depressing garbage.

Pox wrote:

“To even imply that when it has not been stated is a bullshit attempt to ignore what those with opposing view points just might be saying.”

It would be so refreshing if the opposition would acknowledge the good being done.

I mean really acknowledge it.

Failing this, you are a bunch of partisan hacks without any shred of objectivity.

LIKE ME!!!

JeffR

Cream,

You are actually a poster child for believing in Zeb’s mischaracterizations… because your statement is completely untrue.

And that, in fact, is exactly why Zeb says what he says. He knows that foolish people will fall for it. Congrats for being duped!

[quote]vroom wrote:
You can’t get him to take a stand on anything except not liking W and America.

Cream,

You are actually a poster child for believing in Zeb’s mischaracterizations… because your statement is completely untrue.

And that, in fact, is exactly why Zeb says what he says. He knows that foolish people will fall for it. Congrats for being duped![/quote]

All right Vroom. You were right.

I was wrong!

You are not liked anywhere.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I think it’s a fascinating article, and it does seem to me that we’ve been very successful recently – just look at how Iraq has disappeared from the headlines.

JustTheFacts wrote:
Yes, Iraq has disappeared from the headlines because things are going TOO WELL over there. The media doesn’t want the American people to see what Fallujah really looks like because it would destroy the myth that it was pretty much leveled.

My accountant doesn’t want me to see my bank account either because I have TOO MUCH money in there.
[/quote]

No, JTF, it would be more akin to your broker not mentioning the stock market going up after he’d advised you to short it.

Does anyone have a tissue?

I know it was long, but did anyone read it and want to offer specific thoughts on the article?

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Oh yeah, Zeb, “people are PMing me and agreeing with me,”. Pretty adult of you. Doesn’t seem like a T-man would need to try and brag that he has a coalition behind him. As far as the view on the topic of this thread, I will say this, I hope you are right and it is moving in our direction. Laters Zebster, Elk[/quote]

Elk:

Really, and when does a T-Man need a bodyguard to defend him? Does vroom pay you by the post? If so give him his money back for the last fou. :slight_smile:

If you are going to play the role of vrooms protector you better get it right. I stated: “You (vroom) are also entertaining not only me, but from the PM’s I have been getting apparently many others as well.”

That statement only implies that vrooms posts were entertaining. That does not necessarily mean that people are “agreeing with me” on any particular point. I’m sure you can see the distinction.

As to the thread topic: I believe you when you state that you “hope things are moving in our direction.” I think that unlike those from the ultra left you are first and foremost someone who puts peoples lives ahead of politics. I know we can both agree when I say that a democratic Iraq will indeed be a gigantic victory for freedom.

I do think that the Iraq situation is looking much better for the USA and it won’t be long before even the furthest to the left will have to admit it.

Take care Elk.

[quote]vroom wrote:
You can’t get him to take a stand on anything except not liking W and America.

Cream,

You are actually a poster child for believing in Zeb’s mischaracterizations… because your statement is completely untrue.

And that, in fact, is exactly why Zeb says what he says. He knows that foolish people will fall for it. Congrats for being duped![/quote]

vroom:

No actually I have never attacked you for having “meandering posts.” My only attacks were related to your liberal political philosophy espoused in a hateful fashion, usually directed at President Bush.

As to a comment in your previous post: “liberals and republicans both want things to work out well in Iraq.” I certainly think that many liberals do want things to work out in Iraq. Furthermore, I think that you are one liberal who wants thinks to “work out.” However, I think there are some, even further left than you who want to use Iraq as a political tool in which to harm President Bush. Their hatred for Bush supersedes their love of mankind and any patriotism that they may feel (if from the USA).

I don’t mind those who critique President Bush’s policy in Iraq. I think it’s healthy and well warranted. The only thing that gets old is the constant Bush bashing that some (you included) have been a party to.

Hatred is never attractive! I didn’t like it when some on the right did it to Bill Clinton and I don’t especially care for it when those on the far left do it to Bush. Seems counter productive and mean spirited.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
vroom wrote:
You can’t get him to take a stand on anything except not liking W and America.

Cream,

You are actually a poster child for believing in Zeb’s mischaracterizations… because your statement is completely untrue.

And that, in fact, is exactly why Zeb says what he says. He knows that foolish people will fall for it. Congrats for being duped!

vroom:

No actually I have never attacked you for having “meandering posts.” My only attacks were related to your liberal political philosophy espoused in a hateful fashion, usually directed at President Bush.

As to a comment in your previous post: “liberals and republicans both want things to work out well in Iraq.” I certainly think that many liberals do want things to work out in Iraq. Furthermore, I think that you are one liberal who wants thinks to “work out.” However, I think there are some, even further left than you who want to use Iraq as a political tool in which to harm President Bush. Their hatred for Bush supersedes their love of mankind and any patriotism that they may feel (if from the USA).

I don’t mind those who critique President Bush’s policy in Iraq. I think it’s healthy and well warranted. The only thing that gets old is the constant Bush bashing that some (you included) have been a party to.

Hatred is never attractive! I didn’t like it when some on the right did it to Bill Clinton and I don’t especially care for it when those on the far left do it to Bush. Seems counter productive and mean spirited.

[/quote]

Wow, Zeb, that was a pretty positive post. Alright! Oh, and Vroom has never asked me to defend him what so ever. I know you probably know this already, but I want to make it clear every time I have said something in his favor it was because I think he is a highly honorable dude and was being misrepresented by you! Peace

Politics aside for a moment:

It seems that the situation in Iraq has improved as of late. Casualities seem to be down, as of late. (I am sure someone will find a graph that says otherwise) and the military is training an increasing number of locals to keep the peace.

Going forward it seems to have shaken up some of the more nasty regimes in the regime.

The original post pointed out many things that are going well. I agree with that assesment. I also think the news has been slanted to the negative and many of the troops, via their blogs, have said the same.

Whether the casualities were worth it is for the historians to decide and I don’t think we have seen the final chapter on this story. The impact will be many years down the road.