T Nation

What to Always Buy Organic?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
supabeast wrote:
All my red meat and pork is organic or from very small farms that might as well be organic. I do this as much to avoid meat from brutally inhumane factory farms as I do to avoid the antibiotics and hormones animals get.

More propaganda. You know that they kill animals to provide your meat, right? Please explain the humanity in that.

Do you guys never tire of perpetuating the lies?

Please show some proof of “brutally inhumane factory farms”. Specifically wrt to beef.

Go ahead - I’ll wait. And, FYI - PETA vids are no proof of anything. [/quote]

wasnt there some kind of news story about using tasers to keep cows standing before they were slaughtered recently?

raising an animal to kill it is not a priori proof of inhumane treatment. if a beast lives a nice life and is then slaughtered, i am fine with that. if a beast lives a life of suffering and then is slaughtered, i have more of a problem with that.

Im generally opposed to legislating morality, but i think farms that treat their animals well should advertise this fact, and there should be oversight of these claims.

It is a very tricky subject, and gets even moreso when one consider the growing world population and its demand for food. we should be grateful that the type of beef we consume is even a point of consideration for us as it shows how minimal our problems are compared to a large part of the world who eat whatever is available.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I eat meat - particularly beef - for protein. If I want healthy fats - I take fish oil.

I trim all the fat off my steaks, and only use 93/7 ground beef.

Why should I care about the quality of fat I am throwing in the trash can?

[/quote]

Exactly.

And, I’m going to repeat this again, since noone seemed to pick up on it when Zap Brannigan mentioned it:

Beef contains EXTREMELY SMALL amounts of polyunsaturated fat,and an even smaller portion of that is omega-3 polyunsaturated fat in grass fed beef

So, like RJ said, if you like the taste of grass fed beef, fantastic. But citing its n-3 fatty acid content to justify paying a shitload of money for it is ridiculous.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
With costs rising, everything, gas as well as food, what are the items you will always buy organic?

I read in an article that you should (if you can afford to) always buy butter, coffee and salad vegetables that are organic.

My choice for coffee is Newhall Coffee.
http://www.newhallcoffee.com/
They have great coffee including an organic French Roast that is soooooo good.

I can’t say I actually buy organic butter but perhaps I should.

I do buy from Henry’s which is a great market out here and I do buy what they have listed as organic.

So what do you guys buy?[/quote]

for rule of thumb, generally any fruit with a thin exocarp, or skins,rines ect. Also low growing fruits/veges. Huge amount of studies out there show these kinds of produce contain higher amounts of peti/herb/fugicides than others.

as said earlier “USDA Organic” is like swiss cheese. look for better third party certs, like OTA certification. They don’t fall for that shit.

secondly, if you have a farmers market near by. They have strict rules as well. And its much more affordable.

btw San Diego has great farmers markets (la mesa here). and i concur julian pie is amazing.

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
for rule of thumb, generally any fruit with a thin exocarp, or skins,rines ect. Also low growing fruits/veges. Huge amount of studies out there show these kinds of produce contain higher amounts of peti/herb/fugicides than others.
[/quote]

The worst (wrt to pesticides) are peaches, apples, bell peppers, celery, nectarines, strawberries, cherries, pears, imported grapes, spinach, lettuce and white potatoes.

The best (fewest pesticides) are papaya, broccoli, cabbage, bananas, kiwi, sweet peas, asparagus, mango, pineapple, sweet corn (frozen), avocado and onions.

It is important to remember, however, that people who eat more fruits and vegetables are healthier regardless of growing method.

Regarding the raising of cattle, I just wanted to say that the “Happy Cows come from California” commercials are fake… they don’t have that big, lush, grassy pasture to themselves, and they don’t talk.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What are the supposed health benefits of organic food? Why is it better?

why must the burden of proof lie on organic, rather than conventional?

I don’t buy a lot of organic fruit, but I will say think about all the chemicals sprayed on fruit/veggies, and if you eat a lot it can add up.

[/quote]

Shouldn’t a non-conventional, more expensive alternative be superior and offer some real health benefits if people are to buy it? I suppose avoiding chemicals and pesticides makes sense. But I haven’t heard much evidence that organic is better. Just mostly conclusory statements.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

Regarding the raising of cattle, I just wanted to say that the “Happy Cows come from California” commercials are fake… they don’t have that big, lush, grassy pasture to themselves, and they don’t talk.

[/quote]

What?! They don’t talk!!! Celeste, you have just truly shaken my worldview…

[quote]rainjack wrote:
supabeast wrote:
All my red meat and pork is organic or from very small farms that might as well be organic. I do this as much to avoid meat from brutally inhumane factory farms as I do to avoid the antibiotics and hormones animals get.

More propaganda. You know that they kill animals to provide your meat, right? Please explain the humanity in that.

Do you guys never tire of perpetuating the lies?

Please show some proof of “brutally inhumane factory farms”. Specifically wrt to beef.

Go ahead - I’ll wait. And, FYI - PETA vids are no proof of anything. [/quote]

Yes animals are raised and killed so that we can stuff our faces but there can be a HUGE difference in how the animals are treated (mistreated) from a factory farm vs. local farm. Its not just “oh well they die either way, whats the difference”.

Factory farms should be shut down and thus the prices increased. If someone can’t afford the meat, they don’t buy it, period. Its ridiculous and disgusting that the prices are kept low at the expense of the animal.

And how the hell can you say “find me proof, but not those videos” I’m sure anyone digging can find NUMEROUS sources, will those not count either??

Right now I’m buying organic eggs and ketchup. The super-orange yolk of the eggs makes me think there’s extra goodness floating around in there. It may not be the case, but I like 'em so I eat 'em. I’d be fine with buying regular ketchup if they didn’t have HFCSs in them. I loves my ketchup, but hate the corn syrup.

[quote]BigKDawg wrote:

As far as speaking on the benefits of organic, I read a study awhile back that showed that organic produce in the truest sense of the word actually contained more nutrients and phytochemical content than its conventionally grown alternative.
[/quote]

I have read the same. I have also read that the naturally occurring pesticides are much higher in organic foods and can have a negative effect.

[i]

Then Dr. Ames and Dr. Gold estimated the prevalence of these natural pesticides in the typical diet. In a paper published in 2000 in Mutation Research, they conclude:
About 99.9 percent of the chemicals humans ingest are natural. The amounts of synthetic pesticide residues in plant food are insignificant compared to the amount of natural pesticides produced by plants themselves. Of all dietary pesticides that humans eat, 99.99 percent are natural: they are chemicals produced by plants to defend themselves against fungi, insects, and other animal predators.
We have estimated that on average Americans ingest roughly 5,000 to 10,000 different natural pesticides and their breakdown products. Americans eat about 1,500 mg of natural pesticides per person per day, which is about 10,000 times more than the 0.09 mg they consume of synthetic pesticide residues.
[/i]

I don’t know what to believe anymore but I rarely buy organic.

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/06/synthetic-v-natural-pesticides/

[quote]elliot007 wrote:
wasnt there some kind of news story about using tasers to keep cows standing before they were slaughtered recently?[/quote]

Tasers? I’ve never heard of that. We do use “hot shots” to keep cattle moving - and they have been used for decades everywhere there are more than 2 head of cattle needing to be moved, or processed, but hardly equal to tasers.

Define “a nice life”. They are not human. They eat. They drink. They shit. They sleep. Repeat.

Once again - define your standards of a quality life for a bovine. The truth is, you have no clue how they are treated. A rancher does not profit from a herd of mistreated animals. Feedlots are designed to cause as little stress to the animal as possible. Cattle don’t gain weight if they are constantly stressed. If the cattle aren’t eating, they aren’t making any money.

You guys need to understand that greed does not automatically equal criminal behavior.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

Regarding the raising of cattle, I just wanted to say that the “Happy Cows come from California” commercials are fake… they don’t have that big, lush, grassy pasture to themselves, and they don’t talk.
[/quote]

They’re “happy” as long as they’re still breathing.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
elliot007 wrote:
wasnt there some kind of news story about using tasers to keep cows standing before they were slaughtered recently?

Tasers? I’ve never heard of that. We do use “hot shots” to keep cattle moving - and they have been used for decades everywhere there are more than 2 head of cattle needing to be moved, or processed, but hardly equal to tasers.

raising an animal to kill it is not a priori proof of inhumane treatment. if a beast lives a nice life and is then slaughtered, i am fine with that. if a beast lives a life of suffering and then is slaughtered, i have more of a problem with that.

Define “a nice life”. They are not human. They eat. They drink. They shit. They sleep. Repeat.

Im generally opposed to legislating morality, but i think farms that treat their animals well should advertise this fact, and there should be oversight of these claims.

Once again - define your standards of a quality life for a bovine. The truth is, you have no clue how they are treated. A rancher does not profit from a herd of mistreated animals. Feedlots are designed to cause as little stress to the animal as possible. Cattle don’t gain weight if they are constantly stressed. If the cattle aren’t eating, they aren’t making any money.

You guys need to understand that greed does not automatically equal criminal behavior.

[/quote]

here is the story. this is cruel by any definition you want to use

[quote]elliot007 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
elliot007 wrote:
wasnt there some kind of news story about using tasers to keep cows standing before they were slaughtered recently?

Tasers? I’ve never heard of that. We do use “hot shots” to keep cattle moving - and they have been used for decades everywhere there are more than 2 head of cattle needing to be moved, or processed, but hardly equal to tasers.

raising an animal to kill it is not a priori proof of inhumane treatment. if a beast lives a nice life and is then slaughtered, i am fine with that. if a beast lives a life of suffering and then is slaughtered, i have more of a problem with that.

Define “a nice life”. They are not human. They eat. They drink. They shit. They sleep. Repeat.

Im generally opposed to legislating morality, but i think farms that treat their animals well should advertise this fact, and there should be oversight of these claims.

Once again - define your standards of a quality life for a bovine. The truth is, you have no clue how they are treated. A rancher does not profit from a herd of mistreated animals. Feedlots are designed to cause as little stress to the animal as possible. Cattle don’t gain weight if they are constantly stressed. If the cattle aren’t eating, they aren’t making any money.

You guys need to understand that greed does not automatically equal criminal behavior.

here is the story. this is cruel by any definition you want to use

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4305151[/quote]

Those cattle should not have been slaughtered. They were too sick.

But I am still waiting on your definition of a nice life. Even you friendly local farmer sends your beef off to places similar to that.

Your beef is knocked in the head with an impact hammer, strung up by his hind legs, has his jugular severed, and remains hanging upside down until he is skinned, gutted and quartered.

There is nothing nice about the beef’s last minutes alive.

But as long as you only view him wagging his tail and frolicking in the meadows his only reason for living is more accptable to you?

This is hilariously sad. He was born to be gutted skinned and cooked. Trying to ease your guilt does not change that fact.

[quote]GVkid wrote:
Koffea - that is a brilliant idea. I’ve been trying to think of a way that I can grow some of my own produce in an apartment as I live right by my campus and obviously have no room for any type of a garden. Let me know how the hanging garden works out - I’ve seen some ads for them but haven’t had a chance to check them out.[/quote]

you can grow the 5 gallon and 2 gallon bucket plants inside just fine, but the upside down garden is pretty messy. Once you have tipped them upside down, they pretty much need to stay outside. We had to bring them indoors twice due to potential cold snaps, but it was not pretty.

heres a pic of our light crop setup. (mellons are lower to the ground).
[photo]13469[/photo]
as you can see you dont really need a whole lot of room. which is a good thing cause i dont have it. The water system is automatic and comes on only when the soil reaches a certain level of dryness.
[photo]13470[/photo]
i got most of the pipes from a house that was replacing there galvanized pipe with copper. I spent a total of a little under $70 to build it including the buckets, plants, and irrigation system. hopefully it will pay itself off this summer. Like I said this is our first summer trying it this way, but they seem to be doing well.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
elliot007 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
elliot007 wrote:
wasnt there some kind of news story about using tasers to keep cows standing before they were slaughtered recently?

Tasers? I’ve never heard of that. We do use “hot shots” to keep cattle moving - and they have been used for decades everywhere there are more than 2 head of cattle needing to be moved, or processed, but hardly equal to tasers.

raising an animal to kill it is not a priori proof of inhumane treatment. if a beast lives a nice life and is then slaughtered, i am fine with that. if a beast lives a life of suffering and then is slaughtered, i have more of a problem with that.

Define “a nice life”. They are not human. They eat. They drink. They shit. They sleep. Repeat.

Im generally opposed to legislating morality, but i think farms that treat their animals well should advertise this fact, and there should be oversight of these claims.

Once again - define your standards of a quality life for a bovine. The truth is, you have no clue how they are treated. A rancher does not profit from a herd of mistreated animals. Feedlots are designed to cause as little stress to the animal as possible. Cattle don’t gain weight if they are constantly stressed. If the cattle aren’t eating, they aren’t making any money.

You guys need to understand that greed does not automatically equal criminal behavior.

here is the story. this is cruel by any definition you want to use

Those cattle should not have been slaughtered. They were too sick.

But I am still waiting on your definition of a nice life. Even you friendly local farmer sends your beef off to places similar to that.

Your beef is knocked in the head with an impact hammer, strung up by his hind legs, has his jugular severed, and remains hanging upside down until he is skinned, gutted and quartered.

There is nothing nice about the beef’s last minutes alive.

But as long as you only view him wagging his tail and frolicking in the meadows his only reason for living is more accptable to you?

This is hilariously sad. He was born to be gutted skinned and cooked. Trying to ease your guilt does not change that fact.
[/quote]

Why don’t they just shoot the cow in the head and be done with it? Is it really necessary to strike the cow in the head with a hammer and slit its throat?

i always thought knocking it with the impact hammer killed it, and then they bled it out. is that wrong.

If the life of a bovine is so horrible, why not just set up a union for it? (kidding)

[quote]sumgai wrote:
<<<Who wants to spend money on 50% organic foods? Isn’t the point that it’s 100% organic? It’s like a woman saying she’s kinda pregnant. Either you are or you aren’t. There’s no “kinda organic”.[/quote]

Um, no, organic isn’t analogous to pregnancy.

We’re talking about chemical pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers being used when growing things. A farmer could use a ton, none, or a little. This is not a binary situation like pregnancy.

I worked on a small farm where nothing could be considered “organic” because we used some Miracle Gro-type fertilizer when we planted stuff. But we never used pesticides or herbicides.

Fruits and vegetables when I can.