T Nation

What T Levels Should Be In The Future


#1

Hopefully the title makes sense haha. Let me explain a little more. I was taking 100mg test cyp E7D for example. My test levels came out to 349 at that dosage. I’ve doubled the dosage per week and split it to E3.5D. So I’m taking 100mg E3.5D. Is there a calculator or a way to calculate an approximate level my Testosterone should be at when I go to have blood work done at the 6 week mark?


#2

Umm, no.

First, when you inject once per week, lab results will vary greatly depending on when you tested. So those T numbers aren’t useful.

Second, when injecting twice weekly, try to test halfway between injections for the most accurate results.


#3

@Nashtide Why not test the morning right before my injection is due?


#4

That will give you your trough, which is also helpful, but not as helpful as midpoint.


#5

You need steadier T levels for any of the lab results to be useful for dose refinement.

Please read these stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

#6

What @myth said. If you tested the morning before your next shot, then you got your lowest T numbers.


#7

@Nashtide @The_Myth Do you guys have sources for this? Everything I’ve always read from other forums and other research online has said to have blood work done right before due for a pin at about 6 weeks. This is the first time I’ve heard of testing mid point.


#8

This is not rocket science. T cyp and T eth have half lives of about 7 days. So if you inject once per week you get a large initial spike in T levels then the levels steadily drop with each day. Then you take another shot and the levels spike and then fall. So when is the correct time to test? Levels will vary everyday. So if you only test on the day of the next injection, you are always testing when T is at its lowest. OTOH, if you inject every 3.5 days after a few weeks the levels will only vary a small amount from day to day and if you test halfway between injections, you’re getting the most accurate picture of your levels as they are very steady due to the protocol. The reason this is important, because dose adjustments in not T and an AI can only be done well if your testing is accurate.


#9

Yeah, the sources are all anecdotal from here and collected by @KSman - he’s like the giver.

Here’s the deal. At six weeks you have six half lives from your first shot and your levels will be maxed at the dose you are taking. Getting blood done before your seventh shot tells you the lowest you will be on that dose moving forward. If your levels are over 1100 at that point, you should reduce your dosing. If they are 500, you should increase your dosing.

The problem is, if you take blood after seven days, that tells you your trough. So, what if your level is 850 at that point? You still don’t know what your peak is, and it could be high enough to create excessive aromitization to estrogen, and then you may have a problem.

For what it’s worth, I shoot 140mg once a week, IM. The preferred protocol on this forum is to shoot every 3.5 days subcutaneous. Shooting more often stabilizes, or evens out, T levels and minimizes the risk of converting T to E. It also minimizes the swings from peak to trough, so you don’t feel great post shot and like shit pre shot. Same with SubQ. It is better.

But, I have no problem with getting funky after six days, and E7D works for me since I don’t have conversion to E issues. During stressful times, I do shoot E4D, but it just depends on how I feel

And, the important thing to remember, is you may feel fine with elevated E levels, but it has negative effects on your lipid profile, so you do want to manage it better than just how you feel.

My father is 80 and he shoots 300mg E15D. His Internist is a close friend of our family, and he is smart enough to know he is relatively ignorant with respect to the cutting edge of TRT. I have been on other forums, and have found this to be, by far, the most knowledgeable. Personally, I don’t take all of the recommendations here, but I know what they are, and whenever I have an indication that I might have a problem, I know what to do because I have read all of the stickies here and follow the forum closely.

So, that’s why they test before your seventh pin, and it’s a decent protocol. but, it doesn’t tell you where you are post shot (you could be sky high), and it doesn’t tell you what your midpoint is, which is also important.

If your doc or clinic doesn’t test at these times, and you do want to know the numbers, you can get testing done privately at reasonable rates. I have used Life Extension, others have used PrivateMd labs, I think.

Anyway, just my take, certainly not an authority, may have fucked something up in this post, I’m sure some one will correct me. Bottom line, this forum is, by far, your most valuable resource moving forward.

Good luck.


#10

Also keep in mind that T is a hormone. Our bodies produce hormones very regularly. Our bodies were not built to deal with really large swings in hormone levels. Would your doc give a diabetic a huge dose of insulin (a hormone) once per week?


#11

Yeah, and this is what my old doctor told me about that and T. He said that the body was used to peaks and troughs. Endogenous T worked on daily peaks and troughs, and exogenous (TRT) worked on weekly peaks and troughs. They were different, but the body adapted.

It was but one of many things he said that earned the adjective “old” doctor. And he was my age, and on TRT himself.

One thing he said to consider; he felt that less than 200mg per week was acceptable E7D. More than that, he would recommend E3.5D.

I think this shows the validity of the twice per week protocol when you consider most doctors are between ten and fifteen years behind the cutting edge.

Personally, I am reticent to bash doctors because my brother was an ER doctor - he passed in 2001 - and he was brilliant. One of my best friends is a vascular surgeon. One of my colleagues is married to an internist, and I put my first wife through medical school at GWU. Most doctors are overwhelmed with paper work and regulations and are not able to spend the time managing your care or keeping current on all of the latest and the greatest. That doesn’t mean they are idiots. It just means that you need to be more proactive in your own health care. That sucks, but it is reality.

Off the soap box, sorry.


#12

Well said. Most docs mean well. My personal physician is not well versed in TRT and was unwilling to prescribe injections, an AI or hcg. This doesn’t make him an idiot, but I also have the responsibility to find the right doc for the best treatment. So I still use my doc for everything except TRT. This makes us both happy.


#13

Thank you guys for the thorough response! Interesting to see different methods in regards to TRT on here and other resources. I apologize for not seeing the stickies before. The forum is set up differently than other forums I’ve been on and I didn’t even see any stickies until I was linked to them. So now I’ll take a look. Thanks again


#14

Many here are not very happy about this. Those in charge seem to not want to have things cluttered up with many stickies.


#15

Ya my doc seems to be mostly looking for serious conditions. He didn’t really care about “getting older” symptoms. I’m sure a lot out there are like that. I didn’t specifically ask for a urologist or Endo reference. I imagine he would have given me one if I asked though.


#16

Uro’s and Endo’s typically are no better than a GP. In my opinion, a GP willing to work with you, or one that isn’t really with it, is valuable.

I live in New York and it’s hard to get self injection because a lot of the insurance won’t allow and they make money billing for the office visit and the injection. So I was going to a men’s clinic every week to get an injection. They were more than willing to give me Hcg, but never gave me an AI because my E2 was always in range when the blood tested me - every twelve weeks.

My current doc doesn’t really give a shit and wrote me scrip for Test, told me they probably wouldn’t fill it, but if they did, go ahead and self inject. He tests me every twelve weeks as well, but doesn’t test E2, or a bunch of other things - and gets a little chippy when I ask. So, I have that done on my own nickel once a year, and pay attention to my weight (for water gain with high E2), and my libido. Whenever it gets a little funky, I take Grapeseed Extract for a week, and I get mo betta. But, I’m injecting E5D to limit aromatization. I figure, I’m saving almost a grand in co-payments, so I’ll pony up for a blood test when I need/want it.