Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?
What exactly a “right” is will need to be defined before any discussion like this can get off the ground Lifty.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?[/quote]
I think I am going to call you Captain Somalia.
Government is necessary in large society, it simply cannot function without it. The government exists to first provide security in and out. Have a system of law for crime and dispute resolution and to help provide an infrastructure framework that will allow people to be prosperous and make the country prosperous…
The framers of the constitution had it mostly right. Contrary to popular belief, not all the forefathers were interested in free society.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?[/quote]
I think I am going to call you Captain Somalia. [/quote]
This whole Somalia thing is nonsense.
They are held to an impossible standard.
Look at other governments in Sub Saharan Africa and that is their realistic alternative.
They are not doing worse than those.
Your whole idea that a developed society needs government is baseless, at best you can argue that a sufficiently developed host will attract parasites.
[quote]orion wrote:
Your whole idea that a developed society needs government is baseless, at best you can argue that a sufficiently developed host will attract parasites.[/quote]
So, you have changed your position on the necessity of modern environmental laws and regulations being essential to modern society because of the magnitude of risk involved?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What exactly a “right” is will need to be defined before any discussion like this can get off the ground Lifty.[/quote]
A right is the embodiment of moral justice.
It is a mutually understood agreement of preferential behavior.
Rights are universal, natural, and inalienable - they apply to everyone, they concern only the positive ownership of one’s life, and they cannot be taken away.
Regardless of rights what should governments do?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Your whole idea that a developed society needs government is baseless, at best you can argue that a sufficiently developed host will attract parasites.[/quote]
So, you have changed your position on the necessity of modern environmental laws and regulations being essential to modern society because of the magnitude of risk involved?[/quote]
I think that restrictions when it comes to pollution are necessary and justifiable.
I do not think that the modern nation state is the end all and be all when it comes to these sorts of problems.
Mostly I think that to compare Somalia to anything other than it could realistically hope to be is a cheap shot.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?[/quote]
I think I am going to call you Captain Somalia.
Government is necessary in large society, it simply cannot function without it. The government exists to first provide security in and out. Have a system of law for crime and dispute resolution and to help provide an infrastructure framework that will allow people to be prosperous and make the country prosperous…
The framers of the constitution had it mostly right. Contrary to popular belief, not all the forefathers were interested in free society. [/quote]
Who resolves disputes between the government and individuals?
Who resolves disputes between governments?
How does a government “provide security” by causing chaos around the world with never-ending violence?
How does a government do anything without taking labor and resources away from other more profitable pursuits?
How does government make people more prosperous by taxing their prosperity?
[quote]orion wrote:
I think that restrictions when it comes to pollution are necessary and justifiable.
I do not think that the modern nation state is the end all and be all when it comes to these sorts of problems.
Mostly I think that to compare Somalia to anything other than it could realistically hope to be is a cheap shot. [/quote]
So, a developed society does needs government, right?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?[/quote]
I think I am going to call you Captain Somalia.
Government is necessary in large society, it simply cannot function without it. The government exists to first provide security in and out. Have a system of law for crime and dispute resolution and to help provide an infrastructure framework that will allow people to be prosperous and make the country prosperous…
The framers of the constitution had it mostly right. Contrary to popular belief, not all the forefathers were interested in free society. [/quote]
Who resolves disputes between the government and individuals?
Who resolves disputes between governments?
How does a government “provide security” by causing chaos around the world with never-ending violence?
How does a government do anything without taking labor and resources away from other more profitable pursuits?
How does government make people more prosperous by taxing their prosperity?[/quote]
If people volunteered to provide the services the govt provides then we wouldn’t need to pay as much in taxes.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
I think that restrictions when it comes to pollution are necessary and justifiable.
I do not think that the modern nation state is the end all and be all when it comes to these sorts of problems.
Mostly I think that to compare Somalia to anything other than it could realistically hope to be is a cheap shot. [/quote]
So, a developed society does needs government, right?[/quote]
No, it does not.
It is almost insane to believe that out of all the myriads of possible solution to very specific problems we somehow stumbled into the best of all worlds.
Again, you cannot deduce the necessity of government from its existence.
Tapeworms exist.
That does make then neither necessary nor desirable, but, at a certain stage, they were almost unavoidable.
[quote]orion wrote:
No, it does not.
It is almost insane to believe that out of all the myriads of possible solution to very specific problems we somehow stumbled into the best of all worlds.
Again, you cannot deduce the necessity of government from its existence.
Tapeworms exist.
That does make then neither necessary nor desirable, but, at a certain stage, they were almost unavoidable. [/quote]
But, you said: "I think that restrictions when it comes to pollution are necessary and justifiable.
Modern societies - i.e., industrial and post-industrial societies - generate tons of pollution.
So, modern societies need environmental regulations to deal with the pollution that you said necessitates government reulation, correct?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No, it does not.
It is almost insane to believe that out of all the myriads of possible solution to very specific problems we somehow stumbled into the best of all worlds.
Again, you cannot deduce the necessity of government from its existence.
Tapeworms exist.
That does make then neither necessary nor desirable, but, at a certain stage, they were almost unavoidable. [/quote]
But, you said: "I think that restrictions when it comes to pollution are necessary and justifiable.
Modern societies - i.e., industrial and post-industrial societies - generate tons of pollution.
So, modern societies need environmental regulations to deal with the pollution that you said necessitates government reulation, correct? [/quote]
Yes, I said that it is necessary to regulate it and justifiable.
If there must be governments, yes, that is something they should do.
But, all in all, I am a well enough kind of guy, if those issues were what governments stuck to I would be content.
But they kind of dont.
That however does not imply that I concede that governments are necessary, or desirable or even a social “good”.
No, at best they are a necessary evil and if we find a way to overcome them, swell.
The best that I can offer you is that I tolerate them if they stick to strictly defined justifiable areas.
edited because of redundancy
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?[/quote]
I think I am going to call you Captain Somalia.
Government is necessary in large society, it simply cannot function without it. The government exists to first provide security in and out. Have a system of law for crime and dispute resolution and to help provide an infrastructure framework that will allow people to be prosperous and make the country prosperous…
The framers of the constitution had it mostly right. Contrary to popular belief, not all the forefathers were interested in free society. [/quote]
Who resolves disputes between the government and individuals?
Who resolves disputes between governments?
How does a government “provide security” by causing chaos around the world with never-ending violence?
How does a government do anything without taking labor and resources away from other more profitable pursuits?
How does government make people more prosperous by taxing their prosperity?[/quote]
If people volunteered to provide the services the govt provides then we wouldn’t need to pay as much in taxes. [/quote]
All needed services are voluntarily provided by the free market. I am a voluntary employee as is anyone making a wage in the free market.
If certain services are not provided by a voluntary market then that is proof that they are not needed services.
In fact the free market provides alternatives to government services and is further proof that it is possible to have certain services provided voluntarily: fire, security, roads, charity.
How can something that must be forced upon someone at gunpoint be called a “service”?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If certain services are not provided by a voluntary market then that is proof that they are not needed services.[/quote]
If you get drunk and crash into my house with your car, I need to recover from you for my damages. There is no service in the market that I can purchase to acquire this recovery from you.
I have a hard time believing how it is that the govt vs. no govt debate still has any legs. Surely the only questions remaining are how much and of what type?
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
I have a hard time believing how it is that the govt vs. no govt debate still has any legs. Surely the only questions remaining are how much and of what type?[/quote]
It doesn’t, and it isn’t a debate. Every several months or so, Lifty’s starts a new thread with the same tired theme that government isn’t necessary. He gets the same refutations of his juvenile philosophy over and over again, but insists on hitting the restet button for some reason.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
I have a hard time believing how it is that the govt vs. no govt debate still has any legs. Surely the only questions remaining are how much and of what type?[/quote]
It doesn’t, and it isn’t a debate. Every several months or so, Lifty’s starts a new thread with the same tired theme that government isn’t necessary. He gets the same refutations of his juvenile philosophy over and over again, but insists on hitting the restet button for some reason.[/quote]
Quite a bit like the movie Ground Hog Day.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Do governments have any obligations or rights? If so what are they and to who benefits from these obligations and/or rights?
Are there any acts that governments never have the right to do?
Where does government’s right to exist at the expense of someone else come from?[/quote]
I think I am going to call you Captain Somalia.
Government is necessary in large society, it simply cannot function without it. The government exists to first provide security in and out. Have a system of law for crime and dispute resolution and to help provide an infrastructure framework that will allow people to be prosperous and make the country prosperous…
The framers of the constitution had it mostly right. Contrary to popular belief, not all the forefathers were interested in free society. [/quote]
Who resolves disputes between the government and individuals?
Who resolves disputes between governments?
How does a government “provide security” by causing chaos around the world with never-ending violence?
How does a government do anything without taking labor and resources away from other more profitable pursuits?
How does government make people more prosperous by taxing their prosperity?[/quote]
If people volunteered to provide the services the govt provides then we wouldn’t need to pay as much in taxes. [/quote]
All needed services are voluntarily provided by the free market. I am a voluntary employee as is anyone making a wage in the free market.
If certain services are not provided by a voluntary market then that is proof that they are not needed services.
In fact the free market provides alternatives to government services and is further proof that it is possible to have certain services provided voluntarily: fire, security, roads, charity.
How can something that must be forced upon someone at gunpoint be called a “service”?[/quote]
forcing people at gunpoint IS a service.
a quite vital one, actually.
And more importantly, it’s a service that can not be provided by the free market.
A theoretical free market of “forcing people at gunpoint” could not last.
More precisely : it would not remain free very long.
Simply because, by nature, this market tend toward monopoly over time.
Ironically, if a free market of “forcing people at gunpoint” were possible, it would not be a good news either.
Competition would only make violence cheaper and more available.
another “be careful what you want, you may get it” situation.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If certain services are not provided by a voluntary market then that is proof that they are not needed services.[/quote]
If you get drunk and crash into my house with your car, I need to recover from you for my damages. There is no service in the market that I can purchase to acquire this recovery from you.[/quote]
Insurance.