T Nation

What Level Did You Start TRT At and How Did It Change You?


Thanks for the recipe! I will have to pick up some apricot jam this weekend and make a smaller batch. This recipe must feed an army!
I have most of the other ingredients like the flour, brown sugar, and milk but I seldom ever buy jam.


Luckily we are not letting masculinity die without a fight. I mean I dont mind that the deadlift platform is available whenever I need it but Id rather have to work around other men honing their masculinity as well.


So I have 2 daughters, both in either grad school or undergrad and when I’m on campus, the young men I see look so VERY FEMININE! It seems to be the norm and frankly, its disturbing


Not everyone can look like Thors grandpa like you Stud. I do agree tho as a society, our youngins have gotten soft. Fukin Fortnite.


This is the trend. Estrogen dominance from foods, environment, etc. The battle is against xenoestrogens.


To be fair, the APA said specifically ‘traditional masculinity’. And they define what characteristics they deemed to be unhealthy. They also have research backing the claim that these particular characteristics generally correlate to undesirable outcomes. They also mentioned specific masculine qualities that are not toxic.

You can still take up an argument against what they claim, but if you just argue from emotion and yell ‘this is an attack on men!’, you will lose the argument. That would be a straw man.

only the youngins with soft, shitty, and often absent parents. I can guaran-fucking-tee you my son won’t be soft.


My 11 year old son is not soft. And not because I have taught him specifically to be hard. He is confident, stands up for himself and friends, and has the ability to say no and mean it. He also pushes back on his teachers when he feels he’s right, which is a mixed bag in middle school LOL. My daughters are the same way. Now to get them all deadlifting.


Don’t feel bad man. I started at 29 but I’m pretty sure I was having symptoms at 25. Just get all your testing done to rule out anything underlying.


“But in general, when men adhere rigidly to the kinds of norms that encourage them to not share their emotions, to be sort of relentlessly self-reliant without seeking the help or support of others.”

“…people become more silent about what they experience. They just take it like a man and they just keep moving forward.”

These are just a couple of quotes I pulled but the one towards self-reliance has deep implications towards things like the pioneering spirit that created our nation and, a meritocracy where achievement and hard work is rewarded.

The second quote applies to experiencing defeat and getting back up and trying again. They are implying that type of attitude is bad or harmful.

I know these are out of context but I think that these types of thoughts that are being projected by a national mental health organization is dangerous.


have you looked at any of the peer review articles they drew their conclusions from?

I’m also not really sure why you chose those quotes… I don’t find them to be objectionable. I don’t think being ‘relentlessly self-reliant’ is a good thing at all. I think it’s generally a dishonest characterization of successful people, and it’s a way for many men to end up feeling isolated and depressed.

I posted in my log a few days ago about my wife’s cousin, who killed himself a week and a half ago, who I believe fit exactly what this is talking about. Second team all state football in high school, gymastics scholarship, suma cum laude GPA, Interests in theater and comedy… he had all the mental and physical faculties a man could want, but that was coupled with this exact presumption of self-reliance being what makes a man. He isolated himself emotionally, put on a happy face around everyone else because he felt that he was entirely responsible for his own success and happiness. He didn’t want to let anyone around him down. He’s dead today because that pressure became unbearable.

From what I’ve read, that is the sort of mental health issue that is largely being addressed here. I do not think that a quality work ethic, a sense of duty/responsibility to one’s family as a provider, a healthy level of competitiveness, etc, are what the APA is concerned with. It’s when these traits are taken to extremes.

I think there’s a sense among a lot of men that what is best for themselves and their families is that they never share when they hurt, that they hide their tears, that they bury their emotions deep inside. It may actually work for some people. But for the majority of people, that’s a road to a pretty miserable existence.


Society has become so rapidly progressive (not in a political sense, just advancement in general) that I think all national agencies are blindly throwing darts at a board trying to establish what’s going on. Environmental degradation, automation, excess caloric intake lacking nutritional value, etc.

Industrialization changed everything but it seems like our biology hasn’t been able to keep up. We’re anxious, depressed and lack motivation (or overmotivated in a system lacking supports). So many moving parts, all we can do is work toward better outcomes in our communities and our children will hopefully benefit.


First of all, I very sorry to hear about your wife’s cousin. Sounds like an awesome kid who let things push him to a place he couldn’t find a way out of.

I’m sure I’m overly sensitive here but the whole idea being espoused by the APA just seems like a veiled attack on maleness and the traits that embody maleness since time began.

I have to disagree with you here. I understand your point that nobody succeeds purely on their own, but to say that being self reliant is harmful is objectionable to me. The alternative is that I have to rely on someone to provide for me and frankly that’s not the case, at least not while am able bodied. I’m going to reiterate my previous statement…that the men and women who went out to uninhabited lands in the expanding west were nothing but self reliant, fending for themselves, not dependent on a government to provide for them, except for some level of intermittent security from indians set out on killing them. My people were in this group and I still feel deeply grateful to them for their role in developing the west.


no they weren’t. and maybe this is sort of a language thing where we’re interpreting what we’re reading differently. The people you are talking about here were reliant on each other, a small, tight-knit community with strong bonds between the people in it. That isn’t relentless self-reliance, it’s almost the opposite. It’s a complete and total trust/reliance on just a handful of people. I take self-reliance to mean something much more literal.

Here’s an example. I think a man who keeps his family business confined to his family can be a very good, mentally healthy man. As long as he has a partner he can confide in, an outlet for self-expression, he’s avoiding the toxic self-reliance that I would worry about. It’s when you have a family man who won’t even tell his wife he’s having troubles, and instead drinks himself to sleep every night to avoid talking to anyone that is a problem.

I think you know that I, personally, value masculinity. I doubt anyone who’s met me in the last 10 years would characterize me as anything less than very masculine. I have an 8" beard, I’m a competitive strongman, I’m a provider for my family, I have a great work ethic. when my son falls down, I tell him to get back up. I’m teaching him how to ride a bike. We play with legos, dinosaurs, trucks and action figures. Etc. I think all of this is good, and all of this is of a masculine nature. I think the APA would agree.

What I try to eliminate in my own life is the notion that the world has to rest on my shoulders 24/7. I have a tendency to do the things I mentioned above that are toxic. I keep things to myself, sometimes I don’t tell my girlfriend when I’m upset, I just swallow it. And it never works out as well as it would have if I had let my guard down a little, and opened up about my feelings. When I talk to people regularly about the things that trouble me, it helps me deal with them. Same goes for the workplace. It’s really easy for me to take on too much here, because I think I can handle it, when really, I should be asking the people around me for help. Asking for help makes me more productive, it makes the company healthier.


I leave these dumb weight on the living room floor. I leave them there always. A few times a week my sons both 13 do curls. I tell them for now do 3 sets of 10 reps.

After they do them they walk around the house pounding their chests and show off their muscles. No pussies here…

Btw they are also middle school. They are at dean often for bs minor stuff. Mainly because they defend themselves and these pansies are so sensitive.


Good stuff. Unfortunately if you stick up for yourself and hit back you get suspended too. I get it but its not easy. My son is 11 (6th grade) 5’6" with a size 10 mens foot. He gets targeted especially by older kids in the school in 8th grade because of his size. But he doesnt relent. He is an honor student and will swing back to defend himself. He makes me proud in so many ways.

I was going to wait until he was 13 to dig into strength training but I think he is ripe. And my 13 year old daughter is ready too. My 8 year old daughter is in gymnastics and probably stronger than the other two LOL. She is definitely way more limber.


Def the hard part for a lot of men. Man up, cowboy up, grow a pair, be a man, have some balls are still commonplace in our vernacular and mean exactly the opposite. It is also WAY easier to not open up about feelings.


They doing just curls. Push ups. Nothing big.

Best and important job we got being dads


I’m not sure we’re disagreeing here flip. I agree with everything you’re saying. I just don’t like the APA telling me that my tendencies are toxic. Again these are traits that have made us successful as humans and helped get where we are.

I’m not against asking for help or sharing burdens or being emotional either.


Your son sounds like a trooper. How tall do you estimate he’ll be full-grown based on your height or your wife’s male side’s height (or maybe she’s tall too)?

My Dad is about 5’10” but I got to 6’1” I think due to my Mom’s side. My wife and I wonder how tall our daughter will be, me being my height and her being 5’3”.


I’m 5’11", wife is 5’7". Her dad is 6’3" and her brother 6’4" so my son will probably be taller than me.