T Nation

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

A couple of those female rowers and swimmers are pretty “up” there.

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That’s more than “up there”, that’s suspicious as hell… Even women with PCOS have a TT below 150ng/dl, above 200ng/dl is indicative of a tumour or something. A woman with a TT of almost 1000ng/dl tis probably doping.

A TT of 40 1154ng/dl within a man is possible, but such a number is rare, esp for an elite athlete wherein overtraining prior to competition may adversely alter endocrine parameters. I’d argue many can get away with using testosterone in competitive sports as the standardised test to look at testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, if you fail a carbon isotope ratio test is typically conducted, but the test is expensive to perform. There is a genetic mutation (I’d have to look it up again) regarding this ratio that could theoretically allow a subset of athletes to seriously abuse testosterone (like 400mg/wk) and not get popped.

The cutoff criteria for T/ET rato is 4:1, very few have such a ratio naturally. One study I’ve looked at indicates a fair portion of me can use a decent amount of testosterone (enough to statistically enhance performance) without getting popped.

I happen to personally know one individual who competed in the Olympics within a predominantly anaerobic sport. If you look at pictures of him before/after his competitive days he goes into professional athletics as a relatively skinny guy with a full head of hair, comes out looking like a brick shithouse with no hair. Might have been natty… but I’ll suspend my disbelief

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Is that the one where guys took 300mg of TE and several still managed to be under the 4:1 ratio?

I haven’t seen that one. The study I refer to was using a set dose calculated by bodyweight.

Back onto the topic of doping… Poor women, the virilization incurred through raising your TT to 40nmol must be enormous.

You’re practically giving yourself a sex change at that point

In terms of endogenous vs exogenous T use that brings up some interesting concepts. Depends on how long each day you are keeping it there (AUC and all that, that you understand well).

If you do it like this with once a day pulse (troche or cream to the right spot or natesto) anecdotal data shows me it’s not a big deal (or potentially as big a deal, dependent on the individual).

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If you are injecting 100 mg/week of TC/TE as the “average” woman then you’ve probably got some issues coming. My experience and discussions indicate there are many TRT practitioners pulsing women up to 800 to 1000 ng/dL once a day (confirmed with LCMS test about 1.5 hr after application of cream in my anecdotal data experience).

But like you state, very uncommon with natural endogenous production for women. Pulsing also shows much less effect on HPTA as shown with the Natesto studies. I digress, but this seems like the way to go as first line TRT where you can keep whatever little endogenous production you have and also add on with the exogenous T.

There was a thread I read somewhere about a medical practitioner giving a woman 100mg test C/wk to put on weight/muscle mass following (either an eating disorder or chronic Illness)…

Like for God’s sake man, if you’re going to use an anabolic agent in a woman opt for nandrolone (if c17-aa aren’t available or tolerated).

Other superior alternatives for woman (depending on country of residence)

Tibolone
Stanozolol
Oxandrolone
Etc etc…

Another study I looked at compared the pharmacokinetics of testosterone gel in woman vs men. Equivalent dosages for whatever reason lead to a lesser peak/nadir in women comparative to men. Most women noted virilization, making me wonder how said study passed the ethics committee… Like what did you think would happen if you were to administer women 5-10mg testosterone/day. Relative to their baseline production that’s a big increase.

It increased muscle mass and strength, but also led to hirsutism, acne, facial hair growth etc… Shocker…

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It’s been briefly mentioned in this topic a few times but thought I would share below for those who keep wondering “what’s going on with declining Testosterone levels over last 30 years?” and “what should we do about it?”. We never got around to discussing effect of endocrine disrupting chemicals and potential solution space in this thread.

Also see post directly above this for the source article:

Nice review of the feedback loops involved and how today’s lifestyle and pollution may be creating havoc. Just throwing more T at the issue may not be the best approach and the author explains why in a thoughtful way.