What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Answer to your first question lies hidden in an episode of Ancient Aliens. And the answer to the second question is… til I die.

Managing Hct when you are on the fine line between TRT and *pFRT (mild cycle, supra, whatever you want to call it). Go too high it won’t matter. But in the very fine gray zone, perhaps more infrequent injections will help (weekly instead of daily):

Start here and read down.

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Wow, all this and only 5 likes? Hmmm. I wonder how many likes I’ll get if I throw in first order absorption + elimination and more accurately account for Cmax and Tmax (12-24 hrs) in the original plots? SteroidPlotter, eat your heart out.


Pharmacokinetics (levels vs time) with transdermal T creams for those that may want better understanding. No your cream was most likely not prepped incorrectly.

Need to apply 2 or even better 3 times per day for even levels although in the human body T levels are not constant throughout the day.

A fascinating thread pertaining to men with very elevated (outside the reference range) SHBG levels. In these cases they may need to run their TT numbers in that supra-range in order to get their free T levels into mid range. Note I didn’t cover this type of situation above and goes to show the individual needs of each patient. However, this situation is not the same as a guy with an SHBG of 35 nmol/L and who can predict each person’s blood work (Hct, blood pressure, systemic vascular resistance) will move as a function of free T levels (15, 25, vs 40 ng/dL)?


Try this: take 7mg a day. Once you have sufficiently chemically castrated yourself (which will occur quickly) you will quickly realize that you cannot compare endogenous and exogenous T. You’re also not factoring in androgen resistance which cannot be quantified using any unit of measurement. This is why the numbers are often meaningless when trying to resolve symptoms.

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@dbossa He had a whole paragraph where he clarified you cannot compare natural test with exogenous test and the ester. He did point out that test cyp at 70mg is comparable and will get the avg man within range. However it’s at this point the true debate rages… what range is TRT and what is beyond?

Sorry, my bad. I saw that first sentence and stopped reading lol! My total testosterone levels were in the low 500s with 140 mg a week. Imagine if I would have taken half of that. With what I have seen in the past years, with the sheer number a people that I have spoken to on the subject, there is nothing at this point that I can imagine that could possibly change my mind regarding the fact that you cannot target a number or a range because it simply will not apply at the end of the day if your goal is to resolve symptoms which is precisely the whole point of treatment. Any physician targeting a number will never be successful at this.


I don’t think trt can or should be determined by any range. And the good thing is that I think a lot more people are realizing this, including doctors.

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In regards to a term or name, there already is one:

Testosterone Optimization Therapy

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Now this is where I think the majority of T Nation members either are or want to be. Better term for what the masses seek.


Agreed. At the end of the day we’re all trying to optimize several areas. If it was for gains we’d be running cycles. I have no interest in running cycles or getting huge. I just want to feel what I consider to be normal. Normal meaning going through my day without feeling like there are any weaknesses or that anything is wrong. Why anyone would not want to have that is baffling to me. Ruining what could be in order to have a number you and your doctor feel comfortable with is even more baffling. I have no business being in that range of average people. There is nothing average about me. I want to be as healthy as can be, efficient, strong, confident, without getting into synthetic drugs strictly designed to build muscle mass. That has never, ever been my goal. If it was, I’d be huge by now, which I’m not. I just want to maintain what I have, in all areas, for as long as I can.

Using exogenous testosterone is equatable to chemical castration. LH/FSH is shut off if the dose used is higher than what the individual would naturally produce.

A rough experiment would be to take 7mg of crystallised, water based testosterone per day. This would potentially mimic natural circadian rhythms.

Plenty of men feel okay on androgel (although for a fair portion isssues with absorption can become apparent and). Generic gels are 5-10mg/day.

Plenty of men in australia are more than happy on 75-125mg testosterone enanthate per week, or even 250mg e2w. What’s more, many men can achieve a cavg of 700-1000ng/dl on 100mg/wk with FT at or slightly above reference ranges.

But you’ve run mild cycles before? Not equatable to the cycles used by bodybuilders or athletes, but enough to distinctly differentiate from hormone optimisation.

The synthetics aren’t as all that different from testosterone in relation to ability to build muscle mass until you get into C17aa/trenbolone/nandrolone style territory. High dose testosterone will probably build more lean tissue than primobolan, boldenone or masteron will on a mg/mg basis.

What’s more, the average male would call you “huge”, from what I’ve seen you’re a pretty big guy

Chemical castration meaning you wind up with a deficiency of testosterone similar to someone with primary hypogonadism while taking testosterone. It’s simply not enough for virtually any man out there.

I have. Very mild stuff at very low doses and always stuff that had a decent safety profile. I’d never run anything at a high dose. I’d never try anything harsh like tren etc. It was always mostly low dose nandrolone. I want to try low dose masteron and low dose primobolan (individually, not together) just to see what it does. Partly for changes in body recomposition and mostly for the sheer curiosity of how it would affect me, good or bad. These are always relatively short experiments. My health is of utmost priority.

Methenolone (primobolan) is still approved and manufactured for human use. Drostanolone is FDA approved, though I believe manufacture is strictly UGL. Possession is legal in Canada if I recall correctly

What constitutes a low dose? I believe masteron is considerably harsher in terms of lipid profile alterations induced/overall side effect profile. We don’t have much data to go on, but anecdotal reports indicate masteron increases libido (for most) quite dramatically, but can also induce neuropsychiatric abberations (aggression, irritability). All AAS can cause mood alteration, but you hear about it quite frequently with masteron, trenbolone etc

In terms of lean tissue accrual, methenolone is undoubtedly stronger (mg/mg basis), drostanolone doesn’t have affinity for 3-hsd enzyme (neither does methenolone), unlike DHT thus both induce anabolism within skeletal muscle. The purported myth dictates drostanolone is purely cosmetic. This isn’t true, it will add lean tissue… it’s just not particuarly effective at doing so.

Both appear to have an effect on estradiol synthesis (similar to DHT). If you’re one of those guys who is sensitive and feels “low E2” symptoms easily it’d be wise to monitor bloods.

This is exactly what happens when using exogenous testosterone, even in eugonadal men.

Primary hypogonadism (say natural TT of 100ng/dl due to extensive testicular trauma) + exogenous testosterone = what little exogenous testosterone production left is almost entirely shut off and replaced with an exogenous source

Secondary hypogonadism (say 290ng/dl) + exogenous T = endogenous production will drop to like… 20ng/dl as a small portion is produced via adrenals. Exogenous T replaces endogenous production, it’s equatable to chemical castration.

Eugonadal man (say 650ng/dl) + exogenous T = same as cat 1/2

A good example would be to take nandrolone or methenolone without testosterone for a month, get TT/FT tested. Endogenous testosterone production will be equatable to someone who has literally been castrated.

Also we need to refer back to “feeling normal”. I don’t think this is a bad thing per se, but let’s quantify normal. Is it “normal” for a 45 y/o male to feel as if he’s 16 again? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with striving for this, but is it “normal”. From a biological standpoint it certainly isn’t, aging is an inherently normal process

You’re missing my point. Of course LH and FSH get shut down without exogenous T. When I refer to chemical castration I mean that you’re not taking enough exogenous T to have sufficient androgens. You’re basically taking exogenous T and in a severely deficient state. That is what would occur with me using 70mg a week.

Well, men are more than allowed to age and fall apart over time. I’m going for quality of life, which I have achieved with no demonstrable impact on health markers to date. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

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I tend to agree with you, there’s a medium. It’s certainly preferable, in my opinion, to strive for quality of life over quantity.

Many would disagree with my harboured beliefs though.

I mostly agree with most of what you say, generally. You’re a good one :+1: