What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Are you calling @highpull a liar?

:rofl:

You are right. We are actually the same person and he (ahem I mean I) made up the data set superimposed on the peer reviewed clinical trial data.

You got us.

Trigger warning…

image

:innocent:

1 Like

image

image

You like charts and graphs and shit. You are like the guys in the world of finance that look at charts only, but do not look at the sentiment, economic and political situation.

You are the type of guy who probably tells men they are abusing T because your chart says they need to use less.

Yet you do not take into consideration every person is unique, their biology/makeup is genetically unique. everyone has a different lifestyle.

What about SHBG.

Its obvious in the world of TRT, most people need way more than 100. Your only refute is that you have a few charts that prove otherwise.

That chart doesnt tell you anything about the person or persons being tested and evaluated though.

That chart doesnt take into consdieration the heatlh of the person when they started. it doesnt take into consieration their shbg or other factors that could cause a need for more T.

A recent report a few years ago clarified that men have much less T in their body then our ancestors. Why? You know why. its not evolution. it’s unhealthy.

My body is an engine and most men aim to keep it optimal.

I am not wasting my time reading essays and articles by people who have never put their education to tthe test in the clinic world. These are the same people who look at lab results and tell their patient their levels are great, but they never ask the patient how they feel.

My doctor keith nichols is intelligent and his mentor Dr. Rouzier has trained hundreds of dcotors. They have both read and research medical literature / studies, and taken care of hundreds of patients over the years. I get my information from them, the men on this forum/community and my own experience.

T is simply not harmful. Thats why these abusers in the world of body buildling take 1000mg and add on top. the T is simply not going to kill you . your body can only produce so much e and dht. its not like you will have 5k DHT and 1k E levels because you took 1000mg of cypionate. it doesn’t work like that. Even if it did, you wouldnt have enough receptors to use that much hormone.

Their experience severely out-weights anything you bring to the table.

You are like a politician who has no clue what his voter base needs, because you never spoke with them with an open mind. You are like a fascist who knows what they need before you even discuss their needs with them.

Perhaps quoting someone else’s words who is smarter than me can help explain my motivation here:

Your position matches the position you ascribe to @readalot. When you acknowledge there’s a danger zone above the physiological range—for integrated exposure—and it’s unknown where it begins, then it directly follows that going above the range is a risk.

If I hand you a revolver with one live round in it, randomly placed, would you consider it a risk to point it at your head and pull the trigger? If you knew the live round wasn’t the next to be fired then there would be no risk. Otherwise it’s the lack of knowledge itself that makes the risk.

What this really boils down to is the risk/reward tradeoff. In the Russian roulette analogy, if the cylinder could hold a million rounds, and if the reward for surviving were a million dollars, then I’d probably pull the trigger. It might be tough psychologically, but you have to put it in the context of risks we take every day. Just going out for a drive is riskier than pulling the trigger in this situation.

Rather than condemning, you should be applauding @readalot for trying to quantify the risks to help guys decide if the perceived benefits are worth it.

I don’t need any applause. It’s simple, understand the risk/reward and then make your decision. Nichols/TOT land (as @enackers shows above) dismiss any risk. I don’t.

I am not condemning/demonizing anyone for whatever TT/fT levels they want to run. What I am looking out for is the fellow that is new to TRT who is not getting proper information to give informed consent. As I told @cliteastwood, run where you want to and I am glad it is helping you. But I see the comments I made to him last were never responded to. There is no judgment running supra or wherever, but guys should understand the risk/reward so they can make an informed choice.

@enackers this is simply atrocious. Carry on and call me what you like. I still get this weird cult like vibe with the TOT crowd. Like mass pseudo Stockholm Syndrome. Yeah I’ll ignore the years and years of educational training and knowledge I have cause some guru has all the answers. Yeah and Hct is just oxygen in the blood, right? Fill er up :grinning:.

Tareload’s booth at the TOT convention:
image

Guess what, I am not selling you anything and have no financial motivation.

All my charts show are the numbers. Facts not opinions. DRAW your own conclusions. Run where you like and use the figures for what you want. Stay safe/safer (:slight_smile:).

#informed_consent_for_TOT (DB and KN ain’t giving it to ya)

1 Like

I have no stake in this as newby but can tell you after a few months a 300 mg shot was messing me up. Chest tightness like anxiety, depression, deep headache, eye twitching and just feeling insane. 10 days after I was at upper levels and it was just too much for me. I believe if I would have started gentle with a lower daily or EOD I wouldn’t be messed up right now. I have started cream and will see what happens.

I did a phone call with Angie Nichols and even spoke to Dr. Nichols that day. He basically told me that he could help and I was clear I was looking for sympton relief and coiuldn’t tolerate large doses. He listened and was very professional. I don’t agree with everything he pointed me too but I believe if I choose to go to him he would listen to how I am feeling. I don’t know his work in detail so I can’t speak about him in detail but I am using a local compounding pharmacy and will see where it takes me. They are ok if I go scrotal route but my urologist wasn’t.

1 Like

No worries, another satisfied customer (ahem casualty) of TOT world:

250 mg/week test ester protocol.

1 Like

I personally did not become a human pin cushion to be “normal” for the rest of my life lol. I really wish we had something to separate us guys guys who want to be optimized vs the walmart sweat pants guys with cheeto stains smear on his fingers.

Even the roid heads heads who enjoy their cycles, so they can afford the bare minimum of TRT, telling us what TRT is an isn’t. I see nothing wrong with dudes pushing the envelope if blood work and health checks out.

1 Like

Thanks for sharing and i wish you the best on your journey. This wouldnt be the same provider who told you daily shots of 5 to 10 mg/day of test ester is not possible because the serum is too thick would it?

What type of dosing protocol are you doing? Cream concentration and clicks per dose?

Good luck.

:thinking:

Yeah this is me and Im in a world of pain at the moment.

Being promised that higher T would solve all my problems and yet it multiplied them 100 fold.

I know that I have to be patient but this experience has now put me back onto SSRIs and for the first time ever benzos.

Dropped to 112mg dosing ED and now gotta ride this out for another 2-4 weeks. Im so exhausted

1 Like

Not saying what’s wrong or right but that’s with an AI lol which so supposed to further worsen liver and cholesterol. TT In the 1400s and E2 in the 20s.

In my case atleast you can argue if you aren’t on an insane blast, life style and diet over powers even some of the most liberal TRT protocol.

He didn’t say it wasn’t possible but it was too thick with anything larger than a 26 gauge needle… sorry I am pretty foggy as that has been a main symptom for me. He didn’t seem interested in injections since I had such a problem with the large dose and thought longer half lifes may not work well for me.

My compounded cream gives me 10mg of testosterone per click. I am to do 1 to 4 clicks a day total. Divided if I prefer (I had this with me at the appointment). My GP sent me to a pharmacy that has a hormone specialist. The urolgist said I have it so let’s give that a try. I am confused on exactly how many clicks since I don’t know exactly how much would be absorbed and I want to go slow but make sure I get enough.

Today, I did two clicks in the morning, and one this afternoon. I applied to my deltoid. Thinking about scrotal application though as I wonder if I had high conversion to estrodiol when I was on the 300 mg one time shot. I had all of the symptoms so want to avoid that like the plauge.

Here you go. A decent read and you will get an idea of your TT levels with various cream protocols:

If still unclear i can share some more estimates. Confirm your cream is 40 mg/g. That would be 10 mg T per 0.25g (1 click).

Protocol? These are trough levels?

Agreed. I think guys on TRT also focus (obsess?) with how they feel every hour of every day. I know I do. Before TRT I didn’t wake up every day and assess my erections, sleep, energy, etc. I just woke up and had extra coffee if I was tired. Now I try to figure out if my dose is right or e2 is whatever lol. This turns into chasing “symptoms” every day.

6 Likes

Trough injecting 50mg and taking 0.0625 arimidex EOD.

1 Like

Yep, 10mg per click. 4% so 40 mg/g per the pharmacy. I have been using it via deltoid application. I think what I read above is for scrotal. I wonder if it is better to apply that way rather than deltoid? I know that supposed to give more DHT which I worry about if it causes anxiety. I don’t care about hair loss as I don’t have much as it is, lol. I know I don’t know a whole lot but I’d like to shoot for around 400 total and not much more to start. Don’t want upper levels in the range quite yet, if ever.

Maybe placebo but my head is a little clearer. I think anxiety of seeing the doc and starting again was hard on me. I do have anxiety but was kept in check until I started trt and crashed.

Thank you and everyone for their knowledge and time. Much appreciated!

How long does it take for the exogenous to take over for the endogenous T? Does one typically have to bump up their dose after the body stops producing?