T Nation

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Is that the one where guys took 300mg of TE and several still managed to be under the 4:1 ratio?

I haven’t seen that one. The study I refer to was using a set dose calculated by bodyweight.

Back onto the topic of doping… Poor women, the virilization incurred through raising your TT to 40nmol must be enormous.

You’re practically giving yourself a sex change at that point

In terms of endogenous vs exogenous T use that brings up some interesting concepts. Depends on how long each day you are keeping it there (AUC and all that, that you understand well).

If you do it like this with once a day pulse (troche or cream to the right spot or natesto) anecdotal data shows me it’s not a big deal (or potentially as big a deal, dependent on the individual).

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If you are injecting 100 mg/week of TC/TE as the “average” woman then you’ve probably got some issues coming. My experience and discussions indicate there are many TRT practitioners pulsing women up to 800 to 1000 ng/dL once a day (confirmed with LCMS test about 1.5 hr after application of cream in my anecdotal data experience).

But like you state, very uncommon with natural endogenous production for women. Pulsing also shows much less effect on HPTA as shown with the Natesto studies. I digress, but this seems like the way to go as first line TRT where you can keep whatever little endogenous production you have and also add on with the exogenous T.

There was a thread I read somewhere about a medical practitioner giving a woman 100mg test C/wk to put on weight/muscle mass following (either an eating disorder or chronic Illness)…

Like for God’s sake man, if you’re going to use an anabolic agent in a woman opt for nandrolone (if c17-aa aren’t available or tolerated).

Other superior alternatives for woman (depending on country of residence)

Tibolone
Stanozolol
Oxandrolone
Etc etc…

Another study I looked at compared the pharmacokinetics of testosterone gel in woman vs men. Equivalent dosages for whatever reason lead to a lesser peak/nadir in women comparative to men. Most women noted virilization, making me wonder how said study passed the ethics committee… Like what did you think would happen if you were to administer women 5-10mg testosterone/day. Relative to their baseline production that’s a big increase.

It increased muscle mass and strength, but also led to hirsutism, acne, facial hair growth etc… Shocker…

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It’s been briefly mentioned in this topic a few times but thought I would share below for those who keep wondering “what’s going on with declining Testosterone levels over last 30 years?” and “what should we do about it?”. We never got around to discussing effect of endocrine disrupting chemicals and potential solution space in this thread.

Also see post directly above this for the source article:

Nice review of the feedback loops involved and how today’s lifestyle and pollution may be creating havoc. Just throwing more T at the issue may not be the best approach and the author explains why in a thoughtful way.

In conclusion, our present results demonstrate that short‐term administration of testosterone induces a positive impact on cardiac contractile function, even at supraphysiological concentrations. However, the duration of treatment becomes a key factor in determining the outcome. Prolonged high‐dose treatment with the hormone led to maladaptation and depressed cardiac pump function and cellular contractility mediated, in part, by depressed cellular calcium homeostasis and myofilament function. Further study is required to fully understand the cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying the cardiac pathology associated with supraphysiological exposure to testosterone. Regardless, our current findings support the notion of a severe negative cardiac impact of nontherapeutic use of androgenic steroids.

Had an interesting discussion with cardiologist today regarding my perceived and measurable reduction in bike FTP in the last three years. I’ve been on TRT for 3.5 years. Prior to my AFIB incident I was at 380W (400 W for 20 min * 0.95). Now I can’t even reach 300W. Is it in my head or in my heart? Hard to tell as my echo and stress echo have come back fine multiple times. He mentioned something that I’ve been concerned about, namely subtle, hard to measure (through diagnostic means available today) changes to heart’s morphology that creates scarring and induces contractile dysfunction not in week but over years. The paper attached above (yes, it’s a rodent study), goes over some of these concepts.

TLDR: be careful why you are going on TRT and use minimum effective dose. If you are on TOT and doing it for lifestyle reasons/gainz, etc. be aware of the risks and understand what may potentially be down the runway since we don’t know what will happen to you in 5, 10, 15 years running 1500 ng/dl trough TT levels.

If your life expectancy is less than 10 years or you are fine with potential heart impacts on TOT then go ahead. I’ve now got to decide if I want to spend the next year chasing down if exogenous Testosterone is my issue.

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Wow! It’s like when you found this new amazing song that’s only been out for like 15 years.

Well done Sir.

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As I’ve said repeatedly, TRT is medication, nothing more. It is not meant for some bodybuilding endeavor. It is meant to restore normal function, period.

If my life expectancy was less than ten years I’d be okay with a HELL of a lot more than “trt+”. Especially if the prognosis was degenerative in nature.

I personally like 125mg/wk. It puts me right at the top of normal, slightly over it at peak and I feel great.

I’m at 260mg a week with my 1500 HCG units. I’m slightly outside the free t range, but I enjoy it.

I’m calling bs on this. Of course it’s performance enhancement for someone like myself, who was struggling with low t. Being on testosterone has allowed me to be able to work out, and build muscle at the same level I did 25 years ago.

It brings someone back to normal functioning. TRT is not PED.

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Technically, testosterone is a steroid. That makes it a ped. If it didn’t enhance performance, what would be the point of injecting it?

My T was 170 before starting TRT, and my performance sucked. Now my total t is more in line with a healthy male, and my performance has increased in many ways. It’s not rocket surgery.

So you’re comparing the performance of a eugonadal
Man to a TRT-treated man with normal T values.

I’m not sure what you’re saying.

I replied to a post that said that TRT wasn’t meant for performance enhancement. I explained why it is precisely meant for performance enhancement. If performance wasn’t enhanced by injecting testosterone, then there would be no point in injecting it. I had most symptoms of low t, and I wanted a better life, so I started on testosterone injections. My performance has been enhanced in so many ways. It’s been life changing. I’m not sure why you’re even arguing against TRT enhancing the performance of someone like myself, who had a medical necessity for TRT. It’s not rocket surgery.

I didn’t argue against it. Of course performance will be right by going from untreated to treated. But you’re simply performing at a level allowed by normal T values. I take TRT for medical necessity also.

You said, “ It brings someone back to normal functioning. TRT is not PED.”

Testosterone is a PED. It enhances performance. It’s a hormone, and a drug. That makes it a PED.

This isn’t even controversial. It’s well established science. So again, im not sure what you’re arguing against here.

I don’t think of it as a drug, but as a hormone, something we make naturally and we are supposed to have.

It is a hormone. In fact, once the ester is gone, it’s a bioidentical hormone, exactly the same chemical compound that the human body makes. But as much as you may want to ignore it, by definition, it’s also a drug. It does differ from other synthetic steroids that aren’t bioidentical.

Thanks for that, I had no idea…

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