T Nation

What is the Deep State Goal?

Completely agree, which is why the cabinet appointees should be generalists, as you say, and comfortable managing all priorities and values in play, not just the expert’s field (in which they might be irrationally passionate, even if well-meaning).

Hear, hear. And this every budget meeting, too, isn’t it? :smile:

We agree 100% on this - I just think that normal self-interest (even as it must be managed) we see in bureaucrats (and in the private sector, too) isn’t the same as a big conspiracy to harm regular folks.

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Shockingly yes!

Precisely so. The issue for many is that the normal operation of self interest in a crucial sector can often look like malice. In most instances, it isn’t.

Anyone want to buy some magic beans? Going cheap.

I’m sure we’d all love to be comforted by the notion that the DMV or unemployment office are gripped by some wild conspiracy to make all users miserable. Alas, it probably just ain’t so.

Ah, go on then. Will two oxen serve as barter price?

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JUst to clarify, you don’t think there are power brokers that make things happen in relative secrecy and at a much higher level than some elected MP from nowheresville or even some Humphrey figure or a General over a few thousand of men?

Why does the US and UK have the famously unpopular dregs of the world as their highest ranking politicians/leaders?

I am certain that ministerial officers have briefed against government policy. Hell, the CIA has plenty of confirmed instances of that. There are also confirmed instances of overmighty civil servants during the 60’s and beyond in the U.K. home office and Foreign office.

A shadow cabal would require more evidence for me to believe it.

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I ask this ^^^^ from the standpoint of Trump, China, Muslims beating disrupters of a social order that a ruling cabal would want. If they fight and kill each other, maybe the countries can be brought back into whatever world these people envision.

An out-of-touch narcissistic elitist desperate for acceptance who never once in his life has been exposed to any form of hardship and has the composure and sangfroid of a fifteen year old rich valley girl who got dumped by her boyfriend is supposed to be the “I am the storm” person?

They guy you can disarm with a compliment?

That’s rich.

Per Comrade Stalin, the official name for the Deep State is “out of touch transnational elites”. During Stalin’s purges in the late 1930ies telltale signs of belonging to this cabal were education, expertise in a particular field and intelligence. Then General Zhukov, future Marshall of the Soviet Union and the savior of USSR narrowly avoided execution after being accused of “unusual competency” and “intelligence”.

Nothing new under the sun.

Oh, it’s only a matter of time before they start using the J-word for the Deep State openly, because that’s what it’s all about for the peddlers of such conspiracy theories, not musings about the usual self preservation instinct of bureaucracy.

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Unanticipated upside? A Trump meme with no misspellings. In these dark days, I’ll take such a sliver of progress. :wink:

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This is why I believe there is a Deep State that is way more in charge than which politician is in charge for whatever level.
Apologies to @Mufasa if this considered off topic

What the FINRA data showed was that the dark pools owned by the five largest banks-Bank of America, Barclays, Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley and UBS-accounted for about half of all ATS trading volume, and that the average trade size in the top five dark pools in the FINRA report was a paltry 187 shares. That number alone undercut dark pools’ purported raison d’etre-that they existed as a venue for large institutional block trades of tens or hundreds of thousands of shares that would otherwise roil the markets.

I think it’s wise to ask why those people are pushing the narrative. I hadn’t even heard of the deep state pre-Trump. It seems from what I’ve read/seen that it’s primarily pushed by the right wing in the US to protect him. Anyone who is trying to “get him” is a deep state plant.

But it seems like most people in here so far aren’t all talking about the deep state. Hence why defining who it is is important. If we’re just saying countries and leaders want power then that to me is hardly worth discussing at least in a new sense. When has this not been the case?

I think the narrative of why this deep state idea gets pushed and when is more noteworthy. No one was pushing Faucci as part of the deep state until he contradicted Trump. Now he’s working for Hilary or some gobbledygook. That idea started the moment he questioned the President. If you aren’t praising and agreeing with him all the time and you work in government you’re part of the deep state it seems.

Do we have examples from some of the deep state trumpets like Hannity and Limbaugh of them using the term about people who have sang the Presidents praises non stop?

A quote from an article by a guy pushing this (from one of his videos).

“The day before, he raged about how “The #FakeNews colludes with #FakeScience to create #FakeProblems, #FakeSolutions and #FakeHistory to drive us into slavery and fascism.”

That’s weird, and I hear ye

I like my conspiracies to be bigger than “To defeat Trump” - hahaha

I agree with Hfactor that I can’t remember the term “Deep State” being a thing before Trump was running, but the idea is very old. These would hypothetically be the same people that killed JFK,etc
That such a thing could exist and have grown over many decades is no more ridiculous than the old stuff.

A lot of the old stuff was never fully resolved in my opinion, so the entire conspiracy space has grown and grown compounding over decades as much as a Deep State may have. And so it grows bigger and louder until it can’t be ignored anymore. Unfortunately it’s grown much more ridiculous so it’s hard to take a lot of it seriously, and there’s so many offshoots no one can figure out

Which basically makes your question (what is the Deep State goal) impossible to answer, if we were to temporarily assume such a thing existed, even the people inside wouldn’t really know - the ones who think they know are the future patsies harharharhar

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To me the term Deep State was new and used largely around Donald Trump. I’m too lazy to check the origins. I still think as best as I can see the term is primarily used by the right wing to attack people in government agencies who aren’t kissing his ring 24/7.

Now the idea of a one world order, Illuminati, bilderberg group, Jews control the world, etc is really old. Maybe not each individual term. To me that’s not the deep state in contemporary terms. The deep state referred to by right wing pundits is almost exclusively used in terms of Donald Trump. People in government become deep state members/plants because they differ from the President on how things should go.

Getting on the deep state list is simple. Criticize or contradict the President. Staying off is simple. Kiss the rings 24/7.

I guess you’re right, and I can’t help much in explaining what I don’t understand

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Indeed. What some people in here are talking about aren’t the deep state (from what I can tell) as used by right wing media which exists to harm Trump.

I can’t understand something I don’t even know is real either. The older stuff I mentioned to me isn’t the same thing. But I don’t often keep up on the secret society clubs newsletters.

I don’t even think we keep our people worth watching in the dark much. To me we have a connected group of people with the ability to work within the government to increase their power and money. It’s called the wealthy. Not to say all wealthy are part of it, but you can’t get in if you’re not wealthy.

The deep state was behind our current dictator…the Kenyan born Muslim who took our guns.

Using some quick napkin math and google searches, I’m showing roughly 2 million government employees in the US. At most 1/4 of those are elected.

If you’ve ever worked in government you might have noticed that things work a little differently than the private sector. This is expected, since they don’t need to generate revenue and instead secure funding by taking it from other people.

I’m sure there are some very powerful un-elected bureaucrats who use their levels of power to achieve outcomes that are not necessarily in the public’s interest. Or maybe the person believes that they are doing the right thing, when a more objective person would see an over-reach.

It defies logic to believe that all of these people are operating strictly in the taxpayer interest. It defies logic to believe that powerful unelected bureaucrats are not collaborating with other powerful unelected bureaucrats to achieve outcomes that are not strictly in the taxpayer interest or even or even voted on directly. I’ve seen it in action on a local level. Of course it’s happening elsewhere.

You can call this “deep state” if you want. I just call it “government”.

I agree with this completely. Depending on how we define taxpayer interest would be the level. But I certainly think aspects of the government are used to enrich themselves or already wealthy people who buy influence with them. It’s why big banks had a massive part in crafting legislation during the Great Recession. It’s why private contractors work to have big military contracts

I believe the point of the original post has been muddled a bit. The “deep state” in contemporary terms has been centered around the idea that government employees are consistently and actively working to overturn or overthrow President Trump. From what I can tell the right wing seems to think that anyone working in government to provide oversight or not showing the proper amount of enthusiasm for the President is a deep state plant. The far right flipped hard on Dr Faucci. And it didn’t flip until he said things that were contrary to the President.