What is an Open Chained Movement?

[quote]derek wrote:
Dirty Tiger wrote:
Would a leg press be considered open chain?

Your torso is motionless while your legs push away.

Closed.[/quote]

OPEN! The body isnt moving, the feet are! The squat however… the opposite! no?

Joe

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Damn, I wish I wasn’t s*****d, so I could get my teeth into this.

This has the makings of a good, technical thread :slight_smile:

The only thing I will say now, is that I for one consider most open chain exercises better for developing the stabilising/fixator muscles, due to the hand being able to move freely through 3D space, rather than being partially (or wholely) tethered to a predetermined movement pattern.

For example, dumbells over bars.

Everything in its place though. Single leg squats might (IMO) be about the best lower body and proprioceptive training exercise ever, but you still need regular barbell squats in a good routine, too.

FWIW, I consider the single leg squat to be OCKE, and the barbell squat to be partially CCKE, but not as ‘closed’ as a leg press, for example.

I know there’s only supposed to be ‘open’ chain and ‘closed’ chain, but I see it more as a case of degrees, not absolutes. A continuum.

I don’t suppose that answers your question, lol?

Bushy[/quote]

I think your thinking bilateral versus unilateral.
What is the difference between a lat pull down vs a pull-up for example…
That is probably because you are s*****d.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Damn, I wish I wasn’t s*****d, so I could get my teeth into this.

This has the makings of a good, technical thread :slight_smile:

The only thing I will say now, is that I for one consider most open chain exercises better for developing the stabilising/fixator muscles, due to the hand being able to move freely through 3D space, rather than being partially (or wholely) tethered to a predetermined movement pattern.

For example, dumbells over bars.

Everything in its place though. Single leg squats might (IMO) be about the best lower body and proprioceptive training exercise ever, but you still need regular barbell squats in a good routine, too.

FWIW, I consider the single leg squat to be OCKE, and the barbell squat to be partially CCKE, but not as ‘closed’ as a leg press, for example.

I know there’s only supposed to be ‘open’ chain and ‘closed’ chain, but I see it more as a case of degrees, not absolutes. A continuum.

I don’t suppose that answers your question, lol?

Bushy[/quote]

(Psssst… bushi… you put 2 “d’s” in stoned…)

AND NO it doesnt! I believe you are wrong, from what i have learnt here today my good man,

Single leg Sq. Closed.
Bar Sq. Closed.

The body moves on both of them and the feet are “fixed”

… i dont get the degrees bit! Do you mean because in the single leg squat, your ankle is wobbling…?

Joe

[quote]Joe Brook wrote:

(Psssst… bushi… you put 2 “d’s” in stoned…)

AND NO it doesnt! I believe you are wrong, from what i have learnt here today my good man,

Single leg Sq. Closed.
Bar Sq. Closed.

The body moves on both of them and the feet are “fixed”

… i dont get the degrees bit! Do you mean because in the single leg squat, your ankle is wobbling…?

Joe[/quote]

very correct. feet do not move in either. you are also correct with the leg press as opposed to squat.

leg press=OKCE. the weight is moving through space

Thanks mate, i got it at last. I came into this thread off target!

Joe

[quote]Joe Brook wrote:
Closed are ALWAYS compound, but the reverse is not true, that is where i was mis-lead.

Thanks for teaching me that.

Joe[/quote]

Closed chain are not always compound as in a standing barbell military press and a leg press where the sled moves, both are open chain but compound exercises.

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Joe Brook wrote:
Closed are ALWAYS compound, but the reverse is not true, that is where i was mis-lead.

Thanks for teaching me that.

Joe

Closed chain are not always compound as in a standing barbell military press and a leg press where the sled moves, both are open chain but compound exercises.[/quote]

No he said it right.

But if you do body weight tricep extenstions, this is an example of closed chain isolation. Also GHR would be a closed chain isolation.

One isn’t necessarily better than the other, but you might argue that closed chain has the potential for more carryover to sport.

If you can load a pushup, of better yet, do some car pushing, you are going to have more carryover to a sport requiring pushing power, than benching.

Benching is a convenient way of overloading similar movement patterns though, thus it is used more often.

Just a thought here, what about exercises like cleans, that are technically closed chain for the lower body, and open chain for the upper body?

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Joe Brook wrote:
Closed are ALWAYS compound, but the reverse is not true, that is where i was mis-lead.

Thanks for teaching me that.

Joe

Closed chain are not always compound as in a standing barbell military press and a leg press where the sled moves, both are open chain but compound exercises.[/quote]

I didnt say all compound are closed, i said all closed are compound…

Joe

Thats a good one dankid! I’ll just wathc from here!!lol!

[quote]Joe Brook wrote:
I didnt say all compound are closed, i said all closed are compound…

Joe[/quote]

I am sorry, I read what you wrote incorrectly, I must have had a moment of dyslexia and inverted it. That is what I get for posting at midnight.

Can somebody sum up what was just said in this thread? Like a good definition of the topic? I have heard the terms but never really cared to know what they were or the differences until now. I’m reading but it’s just not clicking upstairs. lol Joe I think you have it down now don’t ya, could you explain it in simpler terms in one post my brains are scattered trying to figure this out? lol Maybe I should join bushy in the s****d department and it would all make sense. After all it helped with math last semester :stuck_out_tongue: lol jk

Thanks

Gerdy

I always thought closed was when your body moves with the weight. IE: pullups/dips/pushups/handstand pushups/squats, glute ham raise and open is when you move something that has weight attached. Lat pulldown/uh dip machine/bench press/military press/leg press, leg curl.

I think on a very basic level its you moving vs the object moving.

Deadlifts would be closed chain yeah?

Open chain = muscles move weight through space
Closed chain = muscles move you through space, against immovable surface.

But its not that simple, because most lifts are multi jointed and can get confusing. Like i mentioned earlier all the olympic lifts could be considered closed chain at the ankle, knee, and hip, but open chain at the shoulder elbow and wrist.

Im not sure about deadlifts, i think its actually partially open chain. The weight is moving through space, not your body. Wait no this is wrong. The muscles of the upper body are not doing any work to move the weight, so its a closed chain hip/knee/ankle exercise.

Let me see if i can find a better definition for this one.

KK heres the definition out of manual of structural kinesiology by Floyd.

Open Kinetic Chain= distal end of the extremity is not fixed to any surface.

Closed kinetic chain= distal end is fixed.

In open chain exercises, the different joints can move independantly of eachother with little effect on eachother. EX: When doing a bench press, you can move your shoulder at any angle without changin the angle of your elbow. Which would be more like a fly.

Closed chain exercises, the chain is closed, and the joints move more together. EX: In a pushup, you can not change the angle of your shoulder without changing the angle of your elbow.

According to the text, most sports involve primarily closed chain for the lower body, and open chain for the upper body, and closed chain is usually safer and more functional.


As for a summary,

Closed chain lower body = feet are on the ground
Closed chain upper body= hands are on the ground, dip bars, or pullup bar.

By “functional” I assume you mean better carryover to sports yeah?

[quote]Defekt wrote:
By “functional” I assume you mean better carryover to sports yeah?[/quote]

Thats what I was implying, but now that I think about it, you could mean it in the other way functional is used. Functional in terms of daily movements would apply as well. Most upper body tasks are open chained while lower body is closed chain.

I dont really like the principal because it tells us little that we didn’t already know. Bascially the more an exercise resembles a sporting skill, the greater the carryover.

The major thing I noted about closed chain exercises, is they tend to be safer than open chained, because open chained cause shear stress, while closed chain cause compression forces that actually make the joint more stable.

This fact is making me almost want to drop all open chained movements and switch to a simple program of just deadlift, pullups, and pushups. I probably would do it if there was a simple way to add resistence to pushups at the different angles.

[quote]dankid wrote:
KK heres the definition out of manual of structural kinesiology by Floyd.

Open Kinetic Chain= distal end of the extremity is not fixed to any surface.

Closed kinetic chain= distal end is fixed.

In open chain exercises, the different joints can move independantly of eachother with little effect on eachother. EX: When doing a bench press, you can move your shoulder at any angle without changin the angle of your elbow. Which would be more like a fly.

Closed chain exercises, the chain is closed, and the joints move more together. EX: In a pushup, you can not change the angle of your shoulder without changing the angle of your elbow.

According to the text, most sports involve primarily closed chain for the lower body, and open chain for the upper body, and closed chain is usually safer and more functional.


As for a summary,

Closed chain lower body = feet are on the ground
Closed chain upper body= hands are on the ground, dip bars, or pullup bar.[/quote]

HOW does one move the shoulder joint, without moving the elbow during a benchpress? Then it wouldnt be a benchpress it would be a prone lying front barbell raise…
see what i mean?

Good thread.

Joe

[quote]dankid wrote:
Defekt wrote:
By “functional” I assume you mean better carryover to sports yeah?

Thats what I was implying, but now that I think about it, you could mean it in the other way functional is used. Functional in terms of daily movements would apply as well. Most upper body tasks are open chained while lower body is closed chain.

I dont really like the principal because it tells us little that we didn’t already know. Bascially the more an exercise resembles a sporting skill, the greater the carryover.

The major thing I noted about closed chain exercises, is they tend to be safer than open chained, because open chained cause shear stress, while closed chain cause compression forces that actually make the joint more stable.

This fact is making me almost want to drop all open chained movements and switch to a simple program of just deadlift, pullups, and pushups. I probably would do it if there was a simple way to add resistence to pushups at the different angles.
[/quote]

But thats it, it isnt black and white as… there are no more shearing forces during a Bench Press than during a Push Up… see?
This is really a much more complex area than i previousl thought!
Joe

I was thinking about how certian exercises could be made closed chain and some were kinda funny. Someone trying to do a closed chain variation of a rear delt fly could be amusing.

Lol! or…

a side lateral raise… be like an upside down iron cross!!! jesus, that would be hard! Impossible even!

But there are actually alot of options when you put it like that…

Skull Crush - triceps push up or variant
Bar Curl - Biceps Pullup
Military - hand stand press
Bench Press - push up or variant
Leg Press - squat
Leg Curl - Glute ham raise
Bar Row - inverted push up/Horizontal pull up
Leg Extension - Sissy Squats
Triceps pressdown - Dips

There is a full body workout form OKC to CKC.

Joe