T Nation

What if Christians are Wrong?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]

And why can’t you fake it?

Because God knows your heart!

But that is the smartest thing you’ve said since you’ve been posting on T Nation.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Because (assuming there’s a God) God knows your heart!

[/quote]

Fixed that for ya.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]

Dude…

You just uber kicked Blaise right in his math genius nut sack.

Bravo!

You would think that regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) being a decent non-backstabbing buddy-fucker of a person would be good enough to open the pearly gates (or whatever).

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
You would think that regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) being a decent non-backstabbing buddy-fucker of a person would be good enough to open the pearly gates (or whatever).[/quote]

Maybe you should be a Unitarian instead of a Catholic.

Ran,

Converting seems like the quitter thing to do.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]

And why can’t you fake it?

Because God knows your heart!

But that is the smartest thing you’ve said since you’ve been posting on T Nation.[/quote]

But not smart enough to cancel out the OP, can’t believe I posted here twice now. It’s one of those threads where you read the topic and swear your not going to waste time posting in it but somehow it happens anyway.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
You’re missing the point and thats not answering the question. The question is why do christians believe their God to be righteous for sending people to hell for unbelief, but if they were wrong and another god was going to send them to hell for unbelief, then that god would be unrighteous?
[/quote]

Well, supposedly Allah is the G-d of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. So, it’s the same G-d. So, that doesn’t make sense that he’s both just and not just (I believe that is the word you’re looking for, an unrighteous deity could be a just deity).

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
You just have fundamental misunderstanding of faith and religion. Your commentary is so full of shit its funny.
When you understand what religion actually is, then you know why your admonitions are incorrect. Religions is the means not the end. Most Christians understand that God judges the heart and we are not to judge. We leave the judging to God and we are to treat all with love and with hold judgement.

I can tell you this definitively, Christians and Muslims are both righter than atheists. [/quote]

I find it sublimely ironic that you say in one breath that you leave the judging to God and in the same breath you essentially call him stupid. But hey, you ain’t one to judge right?

james
[/quote]

Judging someone’s actions, beliefs, and statements is not the same thing as judging that person’s eternal salvation. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, aight?

[quote]ranengin wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]

Dude…

You just uber kicked Blaise right in his math genius nut sack.

Bravo![/quote]

K. Because you know, you can usually refute whole arguments with one sentence.

Does anyone actually need an explanation as to why Pascal’s wager is a terrible argument?

^^ Go ahead and speak on it, raj.

Let’s also stick with simple, bare-bones version as follows:

Belief in God + God’s existence = eternal salvation
Belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + God’s existence = eternal misery

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Does anyone actually need an explanation as to why Pascal’s wager is a terrible argument?[/quote]It’s also diametrically opposed to the Word of God. A God’s who’s existence might not be is entirely foreign to the bible.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ranengin wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]

Dude…

You just uber kicked Blaise right in his math genius nut sack.

Bravo![/quote]

K. Because you know, you can usually refute whole arguments with one sentence.[/quote]

Feel free to point out the fatal flaw in Sufiandy’s argument.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Judging someone’s actions, beliefs, and statements is not the same thing as judging that person’s eternal salvation. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, aight?[/quote]

Christ forgot to bestow a sense of humor with most of you.

Judging actions, judging eternal salvation, it’s all judging to us heathens.

james

[quote]chillain wrote:
^^ Go ahead and speak on it, raj.

Let’s also stick with simple, bare-bones version as follows:

Belief in God + God’s existence = eternal salvation
Belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + God’s existence = eternal misery[/quote]

Well the simple answer is that there are so many gods/religions out there you can’t avoid punishment for all of them at once.

so basically:

Belief in God + A different God’s existence = eternal misery --> now repeat this equation for every religion that exists.

I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again: The only reason people should believe in god (IMO) is if they’ve had some sort of divine experience. If Jesus/god came down and revealed himself to me personally, I would instantly become a Christian.

If Paul is worthy of a Road to Damascus type experience why aren’t i?

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Judging someone’s actions, beliefs, and statements is not the same thing as judging that person’s eternal salvation. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, aight?[/quote]

Christ forgot to bestow a sense of humor with most of you.

Judging actions, judging eternal salvation, it’s all judging to us heathens.

james
[/quote]Outrageous!! Dearest Christopher has the most refined and exquisite sense of humor of any Catholic(big C) since Leo X.

The whole judging thing btw, is one of the most prevalent perversions of biblical truth extant today. My telling somebody they’ll go to hell without Christ is NOT me judging them. It’s a fact of God’s judgement that I’m reporting to them. If I tell them they WILL be in hell? That is a judgment I dare not make as that is the privilege of God alone. I have no idea what their future holds. I am COMMANDED in the New Testament TOO judge with righteous judgment, ESPECIALLY those who claim to be brothers. That is just laughably easy to demonstrate, but our modern American tolerance of EVERYTHING has corrupted the church’s perception of her responsibility to defend the name and reputation of her spotlessly holy and glorious Lord and Savior.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
^^ Go ahead and speak on it, raj.

Let’s also stick with simple, bare-bones version as follows:

Belief in God + God’s existence = eternal salvation
Belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + God’s existence = eternal misery[/quote]

Well the simple answer is that there are so many gods/religions out there you can’t avoid punishment for all of them at once.

so basically:

Belief in God + A different God’s existence = eternal misery --> now repeat this equation for every religion that exists.

I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again: The only reason people should believe in god (IMO) is if they’ve had some sort of divine experience. If Jesus/god came down and revealed himself to me personally, I would instantly become a Christian.

If Paul is worthy of a Road to Damascus type experience why aren’t i?

[/quote]

It doesn’t matter how many there are. By believing you have a 1 in X chance of choosing the right God, assuming God exists. By not believing you have a 0 in X chance of being right, assuming God exists.

But none of this accounts for the fact that assuming God exists we got this all backwards and he punishes only those who believe in him, so in that case maybe Atheism still has a 1 in X chance like all the others.

[quote]ranengin wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ranengin wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]

Dude…

You just uber kicked Blaise right in his math genius nut sack.

Bravo![/quote]

K. Because you know, you can usually refute whole arguments with one sentence.[/quote]

Feel free to point out the fatal flaw in Sufiandy’s argument.
[/quote]
It’s not an argument. And you may be able to fake behavior, but you cannot fake belief. You cannot fake believe in something, that’s not belief. Therefore, the statement is invalid.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
^^ Go ahead and speak on it, raj.

Let’s also stick with simple, bare-bones version as follows:

Belief in God + God’s existence = eternal salvation
Belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + nonexistent God = status quo
Non-belief in God + God’s existence = eternal misery[/quote]

Well the simple answer is that there are so many gods/religions out there you can’t avoid punishment for all of them at once.

so basically:

Belief in God + A different God’s existence = eternal misery --> now repeat this equation for every religion that exists.

I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again: The only reason people should believe in god (IMO) is if they’ve had some sort of divine experience. If Jesus/god came down and revealed himself to me personally, I would instantly become a Christian.

If Paul is worthy of a Road to Damascus type experience why aren’t i?

[/quote]
There’s only one God, many religions. Religion is a means not an end.

I seriously doubt any divine revelation would change your mind. You would simply find a reason to reject it.