T Nation

What if Christians are Wrong?

I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.

In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.

The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.

Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.

The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?

If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?

LOL

What if?!

What if the Egyptians got it right?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
LOL

What if?!

What if the Egyptians got it right?[/quote]

I’m just using muslims as an example. The point is the same.

They are wrong. El Shaddai made a covenant with Abraham and his people, not the filthy gentiles!

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.

In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.

The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.

Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.

The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?

If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]

Islam is the simplification of Christian doctrines and a heresy. They copied Christians, so if Christians didn’t get it right, they copied from a bad source.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.

In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.

The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.

Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.

The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?

If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]

Islam is the simplification of Christian doctrines and a heresy. They copied Christians, so if Christians didn’t get it right, they copied from a bad source.[/quote]

You’re missing the point and thats not answering the question. The question is why do christians believe their God to be righteous for sending people to hell for unbelief, but if they were wrong and another god was going to send them to hell for unbelief, then that god would be unrighteous?

@clip11:
Please don’t take this the wrong way, seriously, but are you aware that this or one it’s direct derivatives has been discussed numerous times?






http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/why_did_god_create_satan_part_2_1?id=4767556&pageNo=0

For me? I would doubt my own existence… and yours before so much as entertaining a flickering microseconds doubt of the truth of the historical gospel of Jesus Christ. As in the one that was by far mosr commonly believed by those who founded this country. It is infinitely more certain to me than 2+2 equaling 4. Those threads and many others are where I say why.

Oh yeah, we disagree on ALOT, but I consider faithful members of the church of God in Christ my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
EDIT: Like I say, there is much I disagree with here, but I consider it well within the realm of saving orthodoxy. http://cogic.net/cogiccms/default/cogic-history/what-we-believe/

[quote]clip11 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.

In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.

The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.

Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.

The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?

If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]

Islam is the simplification of Christian doctrines and a heresy. They copied Christians, so if Christians didn’t get it right, they copied from a bad source.[/quote]

You’re missing the point and thats not answering the question. The question is why do christians believe their God to be righteous for sending people to hell for unbelief, but if they were wrong and another god was going to send them to hell for unbelief, then that god would be unrighteous?
[/quote]

I do understand your frustration with Chris’ seemingly unrelated response, but he gets at the heart of the matter implicitly. The way you are framing the question forces us into a narrow little box, one in which no answer will suffice. You are right - based on the way YOU have framed the situation, IF EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS ACCURATE, then both Christianity and Islam are equally arbitrary. Once you remove all distinctive beliefs, historical aspects, etc., one religion is the same as any other. However, you are horribly misrepresenting Christianity AND Islam, and in the real world, the world that exists outside of the hypothetical little bubble you have created, the differences DO matter.

There are differences in the historical credentials of the various religions, which is essentially what Brother chris’ point is getting at. The historical credentials of Islam are extremely questionable (and I recognize the tremendous attacks which may await me for that honest assessment).

Guess HH got tired of everyone ignoring his main personality, so he rolled out clip. Who shows up infrequently to start a religious themed post before vanishing for a bit. I vaguely remember something about how his praying to get a job at McDonald’s didn’t work for him.

[quote]ranengin wrote:
They are wrong. El Shaddai made a covenant with Abraham and his people, not the filthy gentiles![/quote]

This is a joke right?

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.

In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.

The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.

Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.

The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?

If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]

You just have fundamental misunderstanding of faith and religion. Your commentary is so full of shit its funny.
When you understand what religion actually is, then you know why your admonitions are incorrect. Religions is the means not the end. Most Christians understand that God judges the heart and we are not to judge. We leave the judging to God and we are to treat all with love and with hold judgement.

I can tell you this definitively, Christians and Muslims are both righter than atheists.

[quote]clip11 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Islam is the simplification of Christian doctrines and a heresy. They copied Christians, so if Christians didn’t get it right, they copied from a bad source.[/quote]

You’re missing the point and thats not answering the question. The question is why do christians believe their God to be righteous for sending people to hell for unbelief, but if they were wrong and another god was going to send them to hell for unbelief, then that god would be unrighteous?
[/quote]

He actually did answer your question, you just missed it. There isn’t a muslim god and a christian god, there is just God.
You are not unrighteous for being wrong about God, you are unrighteous if you reject God. I don’t know if islam has any part of their understanding of God right, wrong, or somewhere in between. We are to respect each other.
I have been to a Mosque before for Friday worship, I know that day that cleric or what ever he is was not teaching anything out of line with Christianity. I don’t know about the rest of the time, but that day was fine, I had no issues with what the guy was saying.
Of course I have issues with some of their derogatory tenets particularly with regards to their treatment of women. I think they are in desperate need of reform, but that’s going to be nearly impossible because they have no central teaching authority.

[quote]pat wrote:
You just have fundamental misunderstanding of faith and religion. Your commentary is so full of shit its funny.
When you understand what religion actually is, then you know why your admonitions are incorrect. Religions is the means not the end. Most Christians understand that God judges the heart and we are not to judge. We leave the judging to God and we are to treat all with love and with hold judgement.

I can tell you this definitively, Christians and Muslims are both righter than atheists. [/quote]

I find it sublimely ironic that you say in one breath that you leave the judging to God and in the same breath you essentially call him stupid. But hey, you ain’t one to judge right?

james

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ranengin wrote:
They are wrong. El Shaddai made a covenant with Abraham and his people, not the filthy gentiles![/quote]

This is a joke right?[/quote]

Dunno, perhaps you should ask El Shaddai.

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
You just have fundamental misunderstanding of faith and religion. Your commentary is so full of shit its funny.
When you understand what religion actually is, then you know why your admonitions are incorrect. Religions is the means not the end. Most Christians understand that God judges the heart and we are not to judge. We leave the judging to God and we are to treat all with love and with hold judgement.

I can tell you this definitively, Christians and Muslims are both righter than atheists. [/quote]

I find it sublimely ironic that you say in one breath that you leave the judging to God and in the same breath you essentially call him stupid. But hey, you ain’t one to judge right?

james
[/quote]

james, I believe your reading comprehension has failed you.


.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.

In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.

The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.

Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.

The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?

If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]

All religion is anti-mind and anti-life. Man needs his mind to think. Religion demands that you shut off your thinking and accept something as true because of faith. But shutting down your brain is a formula for death.

If you have a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that leads you to believe, that’s different. That’s using your brain. Religion has nothing to do with that.

“The first priest was the first rogue who met the first fool.” – Voltaire

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Guess HH got tired of everyone ignoring his main personality, so he rolled out clip. Who shows up infrequently to start a religious themed post before vanishing for a bit. I vaguely remember something about how his praying to get a job at McDonald’s didn’t work for him. [/quote]

I am not an intelligent young black man living in Michigan. I am an old guy living in Ohio who finally saw religion for probably the greatest joke that has ever been played on humanity.

The guys who wrote the Bible were great trolls, I might add. Trolling at its finest…

Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:

Pascal’s Wager

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[/quote]

To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.