T Nation

What if Bush prevented 9-11?

By the way, ephedra was banned because it could, if abused, kill people. Do you support the ban?

Other medicines, like aspirin and acetaminophen, can also kill people if abused. Do you think they should be banned too?

Why are some things that can kill people restricted while other ones are not? How many lives does it take before it becomes important?

People die every day for all kinds of reasons.

Since some muslims kill people, maybe we should make the practice of that religion illegal? Why don’t we just exile every muslim or put them in concentration camps? Why stop with racial profiling? How far do you think we should go?

How much is too much? Do the ends justify the means?

I stopped reading the replies when I read tme’s first response. It’s people like him that make we wonder if all men were indeed created equally 'cause he sure seems to be missing his nutsack.

Musclerob, what do you think the price of freedom has been traditionally? Sadly, freedom is paid for with lives.

Soldier’s lives, not innocent civilian’s lives. You seem to be missing some pretty big concepts here. Are you trying to justify the murder of 3000 Americans?

If you are unwilling to think and use your own mind, what is the point of discussing things?

Yep, that’s me. Deerrr, eerrrr, arrrrr (I think that last one means I’m a pirate, too).

Pre 9-11 nobody would have been willing to do something so blatantly racist as profiling.

Ok, first of, you prove my point. No one would have wanted to do the ONE thing that would have obviously prevented 9-11.

Second, we are not racially profiling - those Arab males are racially profiling themselves. How can you try to spin it around and accuse ME of racially profiling? I’m not the one making Arab males be terrorists. They do that on their own. All I’m doing is observing the fact that terrorists are almost always Arab males. How can you spin my objective observations into me doing something bad, but you don’t seem to mind the terrorists?

Do you think racial profiling hasn’t been done for years? Ask any black person who has been pulled over when driving just because of their skin tone.

Huh, well, that’s just tough shit. That’s what happens when black people commit most of the crimes. Again, it’s not my fault that happens, so it’s not my fault if police do their jobs and look at things objectively.

If 60% of crimes are commited by black males (I made that stat up, btw), and 0% are done my Asian grandmas, why on earth would you go after the Asian grandma for fairness sake? That is intrinsicly UNFAIR since it’s almost 100% guaranteed that that Asian grandma did nothing. Somehow you twist it so that it’s not fair to question people that are at a much greater risk of being guilty, but it’s fine to question people that are at almost zero risk of being guilty. Somehow in your twisted mind that is “fair”.

All I’m doing is pointing out that the US is possibly sliding down the slippery slope of eroding rights and freedoms. You are making all kinds of baseless conclusions on your own.

Baseless conclusions? What would those be? Why don’t you actually state those “baseless conclusions.” In fact, your accusation of “baseless conclusions” appears to be a baseless conclusion, as all you did was come up with some accusation and not follow up with any reason or evidence. I’d call that a “baseless conclusion” if anything.

And you’re right, we are sliding down a slippery slope. We have people like YOU that want to put the people at a much greater risk of terrorism because you have some twisted view of what is “fair”. It’s fair to stop and question people in airports that are at a zero risk of being terrorists. That’s twisted.

So, what do you do? You call my words despicable and attempt to make it uncomfortable for me to express thoughts and ideas.

No. You’re twisting things to fit what you want them to. I’m trying to make you “uncomfortable” to express your thoughts and opinions. Yeah, right. Grow up you baby. I call your thoughts despicable because you seem to think the “rights” of Arab males not to be questioned in airports is more valuable than the 3000 that were MURDERED. I call your thoughts despicable because you think it’s fair to question people that are at a zero risk of being terrorists for the sake of “fairness”.

That is what the current administration has done too. Anyone who doesn’t agree completely with all policy decisions is labelled as unpatriotic or given some other inappropriate label.

The republican attack machine, huh?

Rights and freedoms are not something to be protected when it is convenient. They are something to die for. What do you think the US stands for? It is the land of the free for god sakes! It has things like “all men are created equal” in the constitution. It has ideals that proclaim people are “innocent until proven guilty”.

Do you eve know what the job of the government is? Do you? THE number one job of the government is national defense. And you know what? Citizen have the right not to be murdered! You seem to think Arab males have the RIGHT not to be questioned in an airport, but 3000 Americans didn’t have the right to live. That’s goes beyond despicable.

Do you know how ANYTHING works? Yes, of course it’s “innocent until proven guilty”. But you seem to twist it to mean whatever the hell you want it to mean so it fits into your twisted argument.

What happens in law? Police gather evidence against someone so they have enough to bring charges against them. They then question them in a court, and are innocent until proven guilty. If there is not enough evidence, then they go free.

You seem to think that by questioning Arab males in airports, that they are automatically assumed guilty. First of all, there is a great deal of evidence to show that Arab males are most likely to be terrorists. There’s the evidence. So airlines would then question Arab males that wish to fly on THEIR planes. If there is not enough evidence to show that they’re guilty, then they get to fly. Again, somehow you twisted “questioning with evidence” into “being guilty”.

It is freedom of speech that protects the citizen from a runaway government. Go ahead, start giving up that right for various situations. You’ll become what you are fighting against if you don’t be careful.

Ok, so now allowing airlines to profile based on extensive evidence will lead to the collapse of freedom of speech. And if I sneeze here in the US, I might cause a chain of chaotic events that lead to a tsunami in Japan.

And, all I mean by that is that you’ll have given the administration, whoever holds office, the ability to do anything they want because nobody is able to speak out against it anymore. The longer that situation lasts the more incredibly dangerous it becomes.

What are you talking about?

Sadly, the war against terrorism could last for generations. I don’t see anybody changing the educational curriculum in the Arab world to stop the creation of fanatics.

What does this have to do with profiling? Besides, you need to learn some patience. Not everything is instant, you know. Do you buy video tapes from infomercials at 4 am that guarantee “4 minute abs”?

So, my question to you is, should we also become a nation of unthinking fanatics?

No, we shouldn’t. But with more and more people like you, it might end up that way.

By the way, ephedra was banned because it could, if abused, kill people. Do you support the ban?

First off, the ban has nothing to do with profiling. It is a complex issue that deals with doctors and drug companies. It has nothing to do with the war on terror. It has everything to do with doctors shunning natural remedies, and drug companies wanting to get rid of a threat to their profits, which is what ephedra is - effective.

People die every day for all kinds of reasons.

Are you trying to justify the murder of 3000 of our citizens?

Since some muslims kill people, maybe we should make the practice of that religion illegal? Why don’t we just exile every muslim or put them in concentration camps? Why stop with racial profiling? How far do you think we should go?

This is idiotic. There is something called “freedom of religion”, you know. Allowing airlines to question based on well established profiles will not lead to any of these goofy things you say.

How much is too much? Do the ends justify the means?

Are you asking if questioning Arab males is worth the lives of 3000 of our citizens? The answer is unequivocally yes.

well said vroom!!

Golly derek, you’re going to hurt my feelings and make me cry. So what part of this offended your delicate little sensibilities and got your panties all in a wad anyway?

It’s a great fantasy, for sure. Just think: 9/11 never happened, and Bushleague gets impeached and booted out of office. What’s not to like here? Everybody wins!

I’ll stick by that, sounds like a win/win to me. Let’s see: It is a fantasy. Bushleague was too exclusively focused on Iraq and Saddam to give two shits about Al Queda.

You don’t like the thought of 9/11 never happening? Why?? Cause you love the so-called “Patriot” act?

When bushleague waves goodbye from the steps of AF1 for the last time it will be a very good thing for this country. You can argue and whine all you want, but you will never convince the majority of people in this country that it isn’t true. Whether it happens in January after the Supremes can’t save his dumb ass a second time, or sooner because Congress takes issue with his lies doesn’t much matter to me. Just go fucking home.

Musclerob, glad to see some thought and conversation!

First, I don’t know where you get the idea that anything I’ve said implies I don’t think the victims of 9-11 had rights, or that I don’t think their rights were violated horribly.

I do possibly disagree with the methods you’d choose to protect those lives, if other methods are also available that don’t trod on peoples rights.

So, lets look at the black person pulled over for no other reason than he is black. It’s not because there is any evidence that this particular person committed any crime. It is because in some areas it is felt that black people commit a lot of crimes. This is what you are saying?

People are innocent until proven guilty, period. It doesn’t say they are innocent but only if they don’t have some visible attribute that lumps them in with other people that are sometimes guilty. Authorities are supposed to look for something called evidence. People belonging to minorities should not feel harassed for their entire lives. Well, maybe in your world they should. We can disagree.

So, since that argument seems to leave you unimpressed, maybe we should consider other means. Perhaps having cockpit doors that cannot be shot through or opened from the passenger compartment would solve the problem. Would this work? Maybe.

Perhaps all people that are flying could be asked questions. What is a little inconvenience to save lives? You’ve said so yourself. Besides, not all muslims are visibly Arabic. Aren’t you afraid you might miss someone?

Whoa, this one might be heresy to you, but what about not making the Arabic world hate you with your policies. That might help protect American lives too. Again, this doesn’t make me anti-American. I love the USA and think things other than it’s military strength are what makes it great.

I don’t know about you, but I think all lives are valuable – not just American lives. What makes one life worth more than another? Not everyone is lucky enough to be born here. Not everyone from somewhere else is all that different from us.

The fact that I ask questions and think that there might be better alternatives than the ones you endorse does not mean I have a despicable attitude. This is the baseless conclusion I am referring to.

I truly wish 9-11 had never happened or that it would have been prevented. I also truly wish that the US never forgets the ideals that it was founded on, they are what makes the country so damned great. The fact that those two ideas might conflict from time to time is neither good nor bad.

Also, no government has “one single task” to perform. There are all kinds of areas of responsibilities – just look at the organizational chart showing all the departments and administrative bodies.

As for praying that people like me never get in power, what a shame. Too bad you don’t want leaders that think for themselves, ask questions and consider alternatives when making decisions. I am guilty of this. I think there might be more appropriate and effective alternatives where you assume their are none.

So relax already. I’m not the anti-Christ because I don’t think your solution is the right solution. It is okay to disagree, and it doesn’t make people that disagree with you despicable.

Maybe you just don’t understand where I am coming from? Is everything you don’t understand scary and despicable to you? Sorry, couldn’t resist poking at you.

I do possibly disagree with the methods you’d choose to protect those lives, if other methods are also available that don’t trod on peoples rights.

What are these other methods? What could have been done to prevent 9-11?

So, lets look at the black person pulled over for no other reason than he is black. It’s not because there is any evidence that this particular person committed any crime. It is because in some areas it is felt that black people commit a lot of crimes. This is what you are saying?

No, it is not “felt.” It is true.

If a cop does pull over some black guy in the middle of the day during rush hour or something like that for no reason, then yes, that is wrong.

But if there is a car full of black guys driving through a rich neighborhood at night, then there sure looks like something is up and a cop should be allowed to stop them and simply question them.

People are innocent until proven guilty, period. It doesn’t say they are innocent but only if they don’t have some visible attribute that lumps them in with other people that are sometimes guilty. Authorities are supposed to look for something called evidence. People belonging to minorities should not feel harassed for their entire lives. Well, maybe in your world they should. We can disagree.

Black people should deal with their problems, then. If there weren’t all the family problems, and all sorts of other problems, then there probably wouldn’t be any issues here. Asians are a minority, too, but you don’t see them getting profiled by police because they’re not causing a lot of problems.

So, since that argument seems to leave you unimpressed, maybe we should consider other means. Perhaps having cockpit doors that cannot be shot through or opened from the passenger compartment would solve the problem. Would this work? Maybe.

I think that’s an excellent idea.

Perhaps all people that are flying could be asked questions.

No, because there is no evidence that ALL people are likely to be terrorists.

Besides, not all muslims are visibly Arabic. Aren’t you afraid you might miss someone?

That is true. Sometimes you get black guys that convert to Islam.

But let me ask you - how will only random questioning be any better at finding these people? If someone looks suspicious, or fits a profile, then I see no issue in questioning them.

Here’s something else to consider. Why do young males have to pay significantly higher car insurance rates? Isn’t that sexist? Isn’t that erosion of freedoms?

Whoa, this one might be heresy to you, but what about not making the Arabic world hate you with your policies. That might help protect American lives too.

So we should risk American lives to make some mentally ill Islamics happy? No chance in hell.

I don’t know about you, but I think all lives are valuable – not just American lives. What makes one life worth more than another?

How does questioning Arab males kill them? That doesn’t kill anyone, yet flying planes into buildings kills thousands.

Not everyone is lucky enough to be born here. Not everyone from somewhere else is all that different from us.

You’re right - most people are like us. That’s why most Iraqis want freedom, because most of them ARE like us.

But the sad thing is you have mentally ill Islamics that want to kill everyone but them and destroy all modern civilization.

The fact that I ask questions and think that there might be better alternatives than the ones you endorse does not mean I have a despicable attitude. This is the baseless conclusion I am referring to.

Well, what are your better alternatives?

Also, no government has “one single task” to perform. There are all kinds of areas of responsibilities – just look at the organizational chart showing all the departments and administrative bodies.

I didn’t say that it only has one task. I said national defense is the main job of government. It’s why we have a national government. It’s in the federalist papers.

As for praying that people like me never get in power, what a shame. Too bad you don’t want leaders that think for themselves, ask questions and consider alternatives when making decisions. I am guilty of this. I think there might be more appropriate and effective alternatives where you assume their are none.

I don’t assume there are no alternatives. Making better cockpits in planes is a good idea. But what if terrorists get on and threaten to kill people if the cockpit is not opened?

How do you feel about arming pilots?

What about air marshalls?

So relax already. I’m not the anti-Christ because I don’t think your solution is the right solution. It is okay to disagree, and it doesn’t make people that disagree with you despicable.

I don’t think that. I also don’t think that you’re despicable because you disagree with me.

My point is that allowing airlines to profile would drastically reduce the risk of hijackings. If they see three Arab males trying to get on a plane, they would think something might be up, question them, and if nothing is up, they would let them on.

There are other options, and I think that’s making the cockpit more secure, arming pilots, and perhaps even air marshals.

What do you think of the other options?

tme, don’t kid yourself into thinking you cause me any angst, you’re not that important to me. It’s just a feeling I get that you must be something of a pussy from reading all your past responses. Nothing very specific, just a feeling. Oh, and I appologize for hurting your feelings, no offense was intended.

Okay, it looks like we disagree on how black folks should be treated too.

But if there is a car full of black guys driving through a rich neighborhood at night, then there sure looks like something is up and a cop should be allowed to stop them and simply question them.

Now, if there is something suspicious, like a high rate of speed or one of the guys sitting with a TV on his lap looking guilty, then maybe. More so if there has been a reported robbery in the area. I mean, maybe it is a rich black neighborhood, why shouldn’t there be black people driving around at night?

Poor white trash have family problems, drug problems, crime problems and any other problems you might be attributing to black people. I don’t like the idea of police being able to pull me over just to talk to me whenever they feel like it. Do you? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Here’s something else to consider. Why do young males have to pay significantly higher car insurance rates? Isn’t that sexist? Isn’t that erosion of freedoms?

I see a big difference between market forces adjusting insurance rates to costs and official government policies based on racial attributes. Admittedly, some of these issues get pretty complex and pretty heated.

This type of thing is why there is honest disagreement about whether or not policies to enforce fairness are discriminatory. Should minority students be given placements at college based on the percentage of that minority of people in the populace?

I’d argue that because racism is so rampant in society, still, that perhaps so. If there was no such thing as racism then things really would be fair and it wouldn’t be needed. However, it is an issue that will always cause various parties to disagree. Whoever makes the best argument and convinces the most people gets to make policy and/or reverse it later. Isn’t that how things work?

Whoa, this one might be heresy to you, but what about not making the Arabic world hate you with your policies. That might help protect American lives too.

So we should risk American lives to make some mentally ill Islamics happy? No chance in hell.

No, I’m going a back further than that. The US has been sticking it’s fingers into the business of other countries for a long time. Over the decades it has made enemies. I’m not saying it should or should not have gotten involved in any particular thing. Could it have treaded a little more softly and worked a bit harder at making friends?

Since we are talking about preventative steps, this might have been worthwhile to consider. Who knows, maybe all the foreign policies persued by the states have been done absolutely perfectly throughout history. I doubt it, but it is possible.

Again, this is not a huge criticism of the US, but something that people in the US often don’t think about. Having the strongest army on the planet or the biggest nukes doesn’t mean that the US should choose how the rest of the world operates.

I don’t have any answers in this area - it is just something to think about. Don’t be jumping to any conclusions!

I doubt that a lot of thought has been put into this area. I think you’d agree that 3000 civilian lives is important enough to at least have put serious thought into finding ways to not make enemies (when appropriate).

It is similar to treating black people like second class citizens, if you do that, you won’t be making any friends there. If black people are harassed by police, pulled over when innocent and otherwise harassed, don’t be surprised if they are angry and alienated by authority. Don’t be surprised if that effects their attitude negatively - and no I’m not suggesting they will become terrorists.

Has the US treated the Middle East populace poorly in the past? I don’t know. Apparently some folks over there must think so. Why?

So, just to be clear. I am not America bashing and I am not anti-American. I am just offering some thoughts for consideration. Are there things the US could do or could have done to promote better relations? Maybe. I don’t know.

How do you feel about arming pilots? What about air marshalls?

I have no problem with either of these decisions. People carry weapons on the ground. Many countries have had people armed with machine guns in the airports for decades. If this is a policy decision then so be it. I don’t see anything racist or right limiting by such moves.

When we are talking about preventative measures, the list is huge. Some are a bit outside the box admittedly…

Now, if there is something suspicious, like a high rate of speed or one of the guys sitting with a TV on his lap looking guilty, then maybe. More so if there has been a reported robbery in the area.

Sure, that would be even more reason to stop and question them. Why is it ok to stop a group of black guys when a passenger has a TV on his lap, but not without the TV? I mean, it could just be some buddies helping a friend move and they got lost or something. Why is there a line drawn there?

I mean, maybe it is a rich black neighborhood, why shouldn’t there be black people driving around at night?

Ok, it’s a rich white neighborhood.

Poor white trash have family problems, drug problems, crime problems and any other problems you might be attributing to black people.

I never said they didn’t. If there are a bunch of white trash people doing something that looks suspicious, then they should be questioned, too!

I don’t like the idea of police being able to pull me over just to talk to me whenever they feel like it. Do you? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

No, I don’t like that idea. But I’m pretty sure they’re allowed to. I’d be pissed as hell if I was late for something and they did that, but what am I going to do? If he has absolutely no reason I’d give him a piece of my mind if I were late, but if he thought something I was doing was suspicious, then I can understand. I’d still be pissed, but I would understand.

I see a big difference between market forces adjusting insurance rates to costs and official government policies based on racial attributes.

But wait, my suggestion was that the government would allow the airlines to profile. Although, I do believe the government should be allowed to profile as well.

This type of thing is why there is honest disagreement about whether or not policies to enforce fairness are discriminatory. Should minority students be given placements at college based on the percentage of that minority of people in the populace?

Institutionalized racism such as affirmitive action is NOT fair. There is absolutely no valid reason that an underqualified black person should get a job over a qualified white person.

Security of the nation is a very different and much more important issue.

No, I’m going a back further than that. The US has been sticking it’s fingers into the business of other countries for a long time. Over the decades it has made enemies. I’m not saying it should or should not have gotten involved in any particular thing. Could it have treaded a little more softly and worked a bit harder at making friends?

The mentally ill Islamics don’t single out the US. They want ALL modern societies to be destroyed. That’s why I think it’s horrible that Spain seems to think that if they don’t attack them that they will be safe. No, that is not the case, as they want all modern society to be destroyed.

I doubt that a lot of thought has been put into this area. I think you’d agree that 3000 civilian lives is important enough to at least have put serious thought into finding ways to not make enemies (when appropriate).

The only enemies we are making are the radical Islamics and the people that side with them. Most of Iraqis want us there to help them because they’re just like us…they want to be free and have a good life for themselves and for their children.

It is similar to treating black people like second class citizens, if you do that, you won’t be making any friends there. If black people are harassed by police, pulled over when innocent and otherwise harassed, don’t be surprised if they are angry and alienated by authority.

There is a difference between questioning of suspicious behavior and straight up harassing.

Has the US treated the Middle East populace poorly in the past? I don’t know. Apparently some folks over there must think so. Why?

There have been mistakes for sure, but there seem to be a lot of evil people over there.

There also seem to be a lot of people in this country that seem to side with these militant Islamics. I think they side with them because they themselves are anti-capitalist, government control, etc. But the problem is they don’t realize the people they side with wouldn’t think twice about killing them.

Sure, that would be even more reason to stop and question them. Why is it ok to stop a group of black guys when a passenger has a TV on his lap, but not without the TV? I mean, it could just be some buddies helping a friend move and they got lost or something. Why is there a line drawn there?

I was looking for something reasonably suspicious. It’s not even just having the TV, but having the TV and looking guilty (at night) in my scenario. Your original post just had these folks driving around a white neighborhood (at night).

I’d hope there would have to be some reason other than just being there. Perhaps a good enough reason that you would pull the kids over whether or not they were white or black.

As for not liking affirmative action, do you not think racism should be fought? Who said anything about not hiring a better qualified applicant anyway? If white people were discriminated against and not well represented in good jobs, would you fight against that or just settle for working at McDonalds?

There have been mistakes for sure, but there seem to be a lot of evil people over there.

Yeah, that we do agree on. Maybe a good course of action would be to invisibly spend billions of dollars putting in place an educational system that doesn’t indoctrinate Muslim youths in the ways of fanaticism?

It might be cheaper, in terms of money and lives, then sending troops over to fight them after they’ve been indoctrinated.

One thing I do hate, that I suspect we agree on, is a lot of the damned Arab media, which presents everything in the worst possible light whether it is true or not. Talk about incitement!

Howabout some covert ops already… I’m only half kidding.

At the very least, the US should finding ways to invisibly purchase some media outlets over there and simply provide honest and good journalism (so it isn’t simply seen as or acting as a propaganda tool).

We should be fighting with what we hold cheap, not what we hold dear. They, the terrorists, value lives cheaply and throw them away. Well, money is cheap over here… lets use it since lives are so precious to us.

I was looking for something reasonably suspicious. It’s not even just having the TV, but having the TV and looking guilty (at night) in my scenario. Your original post just had these folks driving around a white neighborhood (at night).

A car full of black kids at night in a rich white neighborhood is suspicious. A truck full of white trash guys at night in a rich black neighborhood is suspicious. It works both ways.

I’d hope there would have to be some reason other than just being there. Perhaps a good enough reason that you would pull the kids over whether or not they were white or black.

See above.

As for not liking affirmative action, do you not think racism should be fought? Who said anything about not hiring a better qualified applicant anyway? If white people were discriminated against and not well represented in good jobs, would you fight against that or just settle for working at McDonalds?

Affirmitive action is all about hiring black people to fill a quota. That means turning away much better qualified white men so that they can hire some black guy that doesn’t deserve the job.

Divirsity is worthless when it is forced. The only time it means something is when it is a result of people being free and working hard. Forcing “equal representation” is rediculous and is insititutionalized racism. It breeds further racism because the white guy is going to be mad that “some bum black guy got my job.” In most places, people are not racist. For the most part, businesses would hire a black person if he is very well qualified since he will make them money. However, it is not the business’s fault, or white peoples’ fault that there seems to be a lot of black people that are lazy. Black people need to deal with that by working hard, and there would be no need for this racism.

But I would argue that the freeing of Iraq will do or allow for a lot of the things you mentioned. Free people want to have a good life, not blow themselves up.

Does anybody else here think that racial profiling in airports would NOT violate the 14th Amendment (equal protection)?

Everyone at an airport is subject to search anyway. They can search you, your bags, your car, anything without a warrant or probable cause. However, it would just be impractical and take too damn long to do a full search of everybody, so why not give “low risk groups” (like little old ladies) a free pass or subject them only to random searches?

I’m not really trying to start a discussion here about whether that kind of screening would actually be effective, just whether or not it’s unconstitutional.

I say do whatever it takes to make the general population safe. I hate when I see people bitching and bitching about getting their bags searched. I understand it’s an inconvenience, but it’s one that is well worth it. If they want to seach someone, I say go do it. Tell them to shut the fuck up, and just relax. I have no problem with every Arab being searched, but it should be done with respect and dignity, and they should not be treated like a terrorist… The majority of them are good people. Better safe than sorry. RLTW

rangertab75

Musclerob Buffpants said “However, it is not the business’s fault, or white peoples’ fault that there seems to be a lot of black people that are lazy. Black people need to deal with that by working hard, and there would be no need for this racism.”

DING DING DING. Congratulations, this is the most racist comment I’ve ever seen on this website.

You’re not supposed to drop the weights on your head, dummy!

Lumpy,

Calling objective observations and experiences racist is stupid.

FYI, ignoring problems does nothing to solve them.

I would love to see blacks fix their problems, but perhaps you would rather that everyone ignored them and pretend they don’t exist, and just allow them to perpetuate?

Black people, per se, don’t have a problem. Well, other than perhaps racist nitwits who make it hard for them to succeed and live the American dream like everyone else.

However, certain communities, people without education and people raised in places that don’t offer them opportunities may have problems compared to others that have these advantages.

However, this will be true regardless of their fucking skin color. There are good, bad, motivated, lazy, ignorant and educated people of every class and race.

If you aren’t aware, very many people will find your racist comments extremely offensive and judge you for them. People with attitudes like yours are the reason that things such as affirmative action came into being.

It’s a straight-up racist comment by Musclerob Buffpants. I doubt the guy actually knows any black people, except maybe (maybe) on a casual basis.

By the way, there was a study done that proved that hiring practices are racist, even when it happens on a subconscious level. Indentical resumes were sent out to companies that were hiring, but one version would have an obvious ‘african’ sounding name and the other would have an obvious ‘WASP’ sounding name. Guess who never got called in for interviews, even thought the resumes and cover letters were exactly the same?

The issue is that even when there are good intentions (gee I would really like to hire a black person) people tend to stay within their comfort zones. In this case it means hiring other people who look like themselves.

It’s institutionalized racism, it is happening on a subconcious level. That’s one of the many reasons that affirmative action is still necessary.

And Musclerob Buffpants, stop dropping the weights on your head.

Black people, per se, don’t have a problem. Well, other than perhaps racist nitwits who make it hard for them to succeed and live the American dream like everyone else.

Oh, they don’t? Why do black people commit such disproportionate amount of crimes? Have you seen high schools recently? I remember, I think, Boston Barrister provided a stat where blacks are a very small minority, yet they are in jail for the great majority of violent crimes.

However, certain communities, people without education and people raised in places that don’t offer them opportunities may have problems compared to others that have these advantages.

Who has to offer opportunities? If they work hard, they can achieve their goals. Look at Condalezza Rice.

However, this will be true regardless of their fucking skin color. There are good, bad, motivated, lazy, ignorant and educated people of every class and race.

Of course. I never said there weren’t.

If you aren’t aware, very many people will find your racist comments extremely offensive and judge you for them. People with attitudes like yours
are the reason that things such as affirmative action came into being.

Again, how is objective observation racist?

Attitudes like mine? My attitude is that black people are just like everyone else, and can reach their goals in life if they have values and work hard. Your attitude seems to be that they are some second class citizen that needs a helping hand to ever be on the same level as white people, and that there should be insitutionalized racism that will only perpetuate racism and division of races, all in the name of helping out these poor black people.

Who’s being racist?

It’s a straight-up racist comment by Musclerob Buffpants. I doubt the guy actually knows any black people, except maybe (maybe) on a casual basis.

You’re an idiot. Many of my classes in highschool were MOSTLY black. And when I say mostly, I mean only a few white kids other than me. The track team I was on only had a handful of white guys, and the rest were black. I had many black friends and my sister’s boyfriend is black, too.

The issue is that even when there are good intentions (gee I would really like to hire a black person) people tend to stay within their comfort zones. In this case it means hiring other people who look like themselves.

Oh, gee, so now we should create laws for EVERY SINGLE DIFFERENCE in people, since people hire within “comfort zones”. We want to be fair, right?

Why are black people singled out as being the only difference? Why not about gay people? Why not anything else? Gay people are intelligent enough to do it on their own but black people aren’t?