What Happened to Trial and Error?

My trial and error example

I know presses build big shoulders, I have included them in every plan of mine for a long time. I also have some long stemming shoulder issues from non lifting injuries, and presses aggravate them.

Being stubborn for a long time I would plug away and deal with the pain but have recently dropped all overhead work for more concentrated lateral/rear delt work.

My shoulders feel better and are growing again. Trial and error. I had people suggest this to me several times but it took lots of pain and aggravation(the trial part) for it to finally click for me.

[quote]Scott M wrote:
People let the pendulum swing way too far and can’t make rational decisions. Diet is the big one to me as you can somewhat cookie cutter training but diet needs a lot of tweaking.

Joe Newb at 5’10 170 decides he’s going to eat right to put on size and sets up his macros

300 grams protein
350 grams carbs
50 grams added healthy fat(not counting what’s in the protein)

OK depending on what his individual metabolism and genetics(blah blah blah) that could be good and it certainly isn’t outrageous. 2 weeks go by and he doesn’t see Jay Cutler in the mirror so he trashes everything and eats like hell for 4 days. He reads a thread on T-Nation about the Anabolic Diet and gives that a go for… 2 weeks. Again not huge so he quits that and goes back to regular person eating. Carb backloading? Hell yeah! This process can repeat over and over again until he either quits or gets so frustrated he hires someone to do his diet.

Had Joe at week 3 on the initial macros just said “Hmm I didn’t gain any weight at all, maybe that wasn’t enough… I’ll bump the carbs up 50 grams between my two meals after I train and add another 10 grams of fat to my 2 night time meals” he might have been onto something. It’s slow, it takes logical and reasonable decisions but it’s the way this works.

You don’t even have to count macros to do this if you eat roughly the same amounts each day, you know lunch is 2 chicken breasts and a starchy side 5x a week… if your weight stalls add a 25 gram whey shake+some ground oats to that meal to bump the size up without really changing what you’ve fallen into habit of eating.

Training is the same way, it’s this program one month and then that and that… when if you were having issue maybe it’s just one EXERCISE that needs changed, 1 less set, 1 more exercise etc. This sport is not for the lazy but they certainly seem to be the loudest and have the most internet access lol[/quote]

Yet another very good post from you. This is something I believe in very much, starting out with something simple, small adjustments and not changing too much at once. If people change too many things, how will they know what made the difference? If they change things too often, how can they really evaluate what they did?

[quote]gregron wrote:
Mini Rant:

Another thing that bugs me is when people are so easy to throw around the word “overtraining.” From my own experiences, while going through NSW training and deploying overseas, is that your body can do WAY MORE than you think possible if you just will/push yourself through it. (Being up for days straight, running and swimming several miles each day in full gear, more push ups than you can count or remember, running the O Course) I think most people never really push themselves and have no idea what REAL overtraining is.

Oh and the whole CNS activation/overload thing that seems to be really big recently. I know its a legit thing but seems like something that people use as an excuse. They wont even try something because on paper it seems to be “too taxing on the CNS”… Why not try it out and see if its too much for you personally?

Ok end mini rant :slight_smile:

.greg.[/quote]

So true.

I’ve had consecutive days where I slept 2-3 hours and managed to work a full shift THEN train hard. Overtraining is so overrated, however, you also know when to back off, not completely but when to leave a few reps/sets in the tank.

My trial and error would probably be that; I used to go all out all the time, but learned to listen to my body more and keep the stubbornness to a minimum. AND, like everyone else said, know what exercises work for you.

Bodybuilding/Powerlifting is so unique that there’s no one way to do things. That’s what most people don’t realize and why they expect information being spoon fed to them, because they think what works for one person will also work for them and why they don’t try the Trial and Error method any more.

Eh…

…if asking questions and not choosing ignorance can save somebody from possibly committing a list of errors due to ‘trial and error’ machismo, then I fail to see anything wrong with asking questions.

Zero.

You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

When driving to a location for the first time, should one drive by looking at a map and/or asking questions…

…or should one find said location by ‘trial and error’?

A prideful fool picks the latter…

[quote]get_ate wrote:
Eh…

…if asking questions and not choosing ignorance can save somebody from possibly committing a list of errors due to ‘trial and error’ machismo, then I fail to see anything wrong with asking questions.

Zero.

You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

When driving to a location for the first time, should one drive by looking at a map and/or asking questions…

…or should one find said location by ‘trial and error’?

A prideful fool picks the latter…[/quote]

I don’t believe anybody here is talking about being an asshole to newbs that are putting in the effort to figure shit out…the ones that have read up, done their homework, bust their asses, then need to ask questions about frequency, form adjustments, etc…those aren’t the ones we have problems with.

It’s people who expect EVERYTHING handed to them on a silver platter. For example:

Or, to use your metaphor, we don’t mind giving directions to a guy who already has looked at a map, but is confused about something. It’s the guy that was too lazy to even glance at a map, and expects us to hop in the passenger seat, and drop everything to help him out, that we disdain. Fair enough?

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
Eh…

…if asking questions and not choosing ignorance can save somebody from possibly committing a list of errors due to ‘trial and error’ machismo, then I fail to see anything wrong with asking questions.

Zero.

You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

When driving to a location for the first time, should one drive by looking at a map and/or asking questions…

…or should one find said location by ‘trial and error’?

A prideful fool picks the latter…[/quote]

I don’t believe anybody here is talking about being an asshole to newbs that are putting in the effort to figure shit out…the ones that have read up, done their homework, bust their asses, then need to ask questions about frequency, form adjustments, etc…those aren’t the ones we have problems with.

It’s people who expect EVERYTHING handed to them on a silver platter. For example:

Or, to use your metaphor, we don’t mind giving directions to a guy who already has looked at a map, but is confused about something. It’s the guy that was too lazy to even glance at a map, and expects us to hop in the passenger seat, and drop everything to help him out, that we disdain. Fair enough?[/quote]

Exactly. This is a perfect metaphor but a real-life example came to mind as well. I’m the guy who stands at the front of Best Buy when customers walk in, so I end up getting asked a lot of questions. One thing I see more frequently than anything else is someone coming in and saying “Where are your iPods?”

Number one, there is a giant fucking sign ten feet straight ahead of the door that says “MP3/iPods” for them to see. That means they’re not even giving an effort into finding it by themselves.

Number two, let’s say that person went over to the kiosk knowing for sure that the iPod is what they want and it’s right for them, because they’ve supposedly done a bunch of research and asked a lot of “experts” at Consumer’s Report. But still, they ask one of the employees for more specifications and descriptions of how it works. Eventually, they find out that the Zune is actually a better pick for what they need, so they get that instead. Wouldn’t that person be glad that they took a little bit of extra time to make sure the investment in which they’re about to make is the proper one?

Well, I can honestly say I’d much rather find out for myself what does and doesn’t work for me compared to others. I know for a fact the way that Hungry ^ up there lifts up there would reap more negative results than positive. . . because I’ve TRIED something similar. Instead, I found general templates and recommendations, and tweaked them to cater to the way my body reacts to that program.

The internet happened.
I think that’s pretty much it.

[quote]SSC wrote:
I know for a fact the way that Hungry ^ up there lifts up there would reap more negative results than positive. . . because I’ve TRIED something similar. [/quote]

That’s cuz you don’t get super-secret performance enhancing drugs and formulas since you’re not in the military.

Lol I wish.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

Or, to use your metaphor, we don’t mind giving directions to a guy who already has looked at a map, but is confused about something. It’s the guy that was too lazy to even glance at a map, and expects us to hop in the passenger seat, and drop everything to help him out, that we disdain. Fair enough?[/quote]

To take the metaphor further, you’ve also got to contend with those choice individuals who demand that you jump into their car and chauffeur them to their destination, only to keep referring to the the map themselves and rant at you for driving them in the wrong direction…all the while finding fault in your driving style…

[quote]get_ate wrote:
Eh…

…if asking questions and not choosing ignorance can save somebody from possibly committing a list of errors due to ‘trial and error’ machismo, then I fail to see anything wrong with asking questions.

Zero.
[/quote]

When did anyone in here reprimand someone for asking legitimate questions?

[quote]get_ate wrote:
You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

[/quote]

When did anyone in here use the words “moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic?”

[[quote]get_ate wrote:
When driving to a location for the first time, should one drive by looking at a map and/or asking questions…

…or should one find said location by ‘trial and error’?

A prideful fool picks the latter…[/quote]

Again no one in here said anything about this. Everyone in this entire thread (go back and re read through it. I just did in order to make sure this post wasn’t contradictory to this thread) has just said that we dont like the excuses.

There is nothing wrong with asking a few questions here and there. (again go back and re read because no where in here does any reference that) We are talking about the people who never really put in the work or give a diet or a program a legitimate shot before denouncing it… All the people with pre existing excuses to why the wont be able to do something or progress.

.greg.

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

[/quote]

When did anyone in here use the words “moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic?”

[/quote]

The point is that there is lot of whining on this site and most of it is self-aggrandising whining about whining. Dumb posts should get zero replies not a 10 page shit storm by people exercising their egos.

[quote]Kvetch wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

[/quote]

When did anyone in here use the words “moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic?”

[/quote]

The point is that there is lot of whining on this site and most of it is self-aggrandising whining about whining. Dumb posts should get zero replies not a 10 page shit storm by people exercising their egos.

[/quote]

so is your post meant go along with get_ate’s post? Whining about people whining about other peoples whining? Triple Whining? whaaaaaa?

.greg.

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Kvetch wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

[/quote]

When did anyone in here use the words “moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic?”

[/quote]

The point is that there is lot of whining on this site and most of it is self-aggrandising whining about whining. Dumb posts should get zero replies not a 10 page shit storm by people exercising their egos.

[/quote]

so is your post meant go along with get_ate’s post? Whining about people whining about other peoples whining? Triple Whining? whaaaaaa?

.greg.
[/quote]

Shhh he’s from England, he doesn’t get it :smiley:

I don’t complain about my genetics, but genetic limitations are real and there is nothing cowardly abcout acknowledging that. No amount of trial and error or eating will ever allow you to transcend your genetics.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I don’t complain about my genetics, but genetic limitations are real and there is nothing cowardly abcout acknowledging that. No amount of trial and error or eating will ever allow you to transcend your genetics. [/quote]

But if we all just ignored our crappy genetics, put our head down and kept on trucking anyway, we’d make more progress than if we stressed over them.

And how do you know your genes are really the limiting factor? Most cases, people just haven’t found what exercises work best for them or just haven’t been doing the right things and busting their asses. Those people are usually the ones who pull the genetic card out of their tight asses and complain. Different people with different genetics respond differently to certain exercises, so trial and error really is the only thing they can rely on.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
Eh…

…if asking questions and not choosing ignorance can save somebody from possibly committing a list of errors due to ‘trial and error’ machismo, then I fail to see anything wrong with asking questions.

Zero.

You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

When driving to a location for the first time, should one drive by looking at a map and/or asking questions…

…or should one find said location by ‘trial and error’?

A prideful fool picks the latter…[/quote]

I don’t believe anybody here is talking about being an asshole to newbs that are putting in the effort to figure shit out…the ones that have read up, done their homework, bust their asses, then need to ask questions about frequency, form adjustments, etc…those aren’t the ones we have problems with.

It’s people who expect EVERYTHING handed to them on a silver platter. For example:

Or, to use your metaphor, we don’t mind giving directions to a guy who already has looked at a map, but is confused about something. It’s the guy that was too lazy to even glance at a map, and expects us to hop in the passenger seat, and drop everything to help him out, that we disdain. Fair enough?[/quote]

Fair.

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
Eh…

…if asking questions and not choosing ignorance can save somebody from possibly committing a list of errors due to ‘trial and error’ machismo, then I fail to see anything wrong with asking questions.

Zero.
[/quote]

When did anyone in here reprimand someone for asking legitimate questions?[/quote]

Who are you to define this word ‘legitimate’?

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]get_ate wrote:
You, on the other hand, do not have to click on those damn threads…

…keeping it moving is not that difficult if it’s beneath you and you deem someone’s question as being moronic, sophomoric, imbecilic, and whatever other adjectives.

[/quote]

When did anyone in here use the words “moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic?” [/quote]

You seem to have missed the point. If a question is not as you termed ‘legitimate’, then logic follows that it must be moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic (and other words of the like that can be used to oppose ‘legitimacy’).

No?

Just because those words were not used specifically does not mean they can’t be applied as to what was deduced from the conversational spark.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I don’t complain about my genetics, but genetic limitations are real and there is nothing cowardly abcout acknowledging that. No amount of trial and error or eating will ever allow you to transcend your genetics. [/quote]

So we can assume you’ve reached them?

[quote]get_ate wrote:

You seem to have missed the point. If a question is not as you termed ‘legitimate’, then logic follows that it must be moronic, sophomoric or imbecilic (and other words of the like that can be used to oppose ‘legitimacy’).

No?

Just because those words were not used specifically does not mean they can’t be applied as to what was deduced from the conversational spark.

[/quote]

I cant help what you imply. I never said I implied those things. just like your previous post said you do not have to click on this damn thread.

.greg.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I don’t complain about my genetics, but genetic limitations are real and there is nothing cowardly abcout acknowledging that. No amount of trial and error or eating will ever allow you to transcend your genetics. [/quote]

So we can assume you’ve reached them?[/quote]

Wouldnt you have to eat and train for years and years consistently to reach your genetic limit? like a decade or two probably to completely max out?

.greg.