T Nation

What Happened in the Ukraine?

I missed this weekend’s news and papers and I come reading the Times to find out there’s been a gov’t switchover in the Ukraine? What happened? Somebody fill me in.

There’s seriously too little in the way of politics and I should have posted a thread on this when it began months ago. Now I’m dying to find out what actually happened to the old president and what the status is of the protesters.

Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it. [/quote]

Like the frowny face :slight_smile:

It is a Liberal / Conservative thing , sound familiar ?

I think he is talking about very recent developments , I personally am optimistic

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it. [/quote]

Like the frowny face :slight_smile:

It is a Liberal / Conservative thing , sound familiar ?

I think he is talking about very recent developments , I personally am optimistic
[/quote]

Yup, recent weekend developments. I’ve been following it loosely since it kicked off a couple months ago. I’d love to be optimistic about this…I just don’t want the new gov’t to turn into the old gov’t, if you know what I mean. There’s no doubt the protestors fought hard and suffered quite a bit, but I don’t think this is over just yet sadly.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it. [/quote]

Some.

Many of the protestors, and probably most of the leaders, are the Uke version of fascists/ultra-nationalists ---- with a fair number of Black Hundreds types on the other side, but still fascists.

Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” – purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”

Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.

So it’s kind of Communists vs. Uke Nazis. vs. Uke-Russian Nazis.

Not that I expect the MSM to figure that out.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think he is talking about very recent developments , I personally am optimistic
[/quote]

I am not remotely a fan of the previous government, but if you think the crowd coming to power is an improvement, you’re in for a shock, unless you like gulags and concentration camps.

Most revolutions end badly.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it. [/quote]

Some.

Many of the protestors, and probably most of the leaders, are the Uke version of fascists/ultra-nationalists ---- with a fair number of Black Hundreds types on the other side, but still fascists.

Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” – purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”

Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.

So it’s kind of Communists vs. Uke Nazis. vs. Uke-Russian Nazis.

Not that I expect the MSM to figure that out.
[/quote]

See, and this is why I wanted people like you to chime in. All I know about this is from the NYTimes and other mainstream outlets so I have zero knowledge of what factions are in this, or where any of them lie on the political spectrum.

Sad.

About half of the above video is on the topic at hand.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think he is talking about very recent developments , I personally am optimistic
[/quote]

I am not remotely a fan of the previous government, but if you think the crowd coming to power is an improvement, you’re in for a shock, unless you like gulags and concentration camps.

Most revolutions end badly.
[/quote]

This.

There are probably among the protesters People who want more Democracy and so on, but it seems that the fascist right-wing dominates the protests. I hope for the sake of the jews in Ukraine that the Extreme right doesnt get into Power.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

I have a hard time taking any panel seriously about matters Ukrainian that includes Pat Buchanon, known for his WWII revisionism (blamed the war on Churchill, claimed much of the Holocaust didn’t happen) and his unquestioning support of Nazi-Collaborating Ukrainian Death Camp Guards (John Demjanjuk).

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

I have a hard time taking any panel seriously about matters Ukrainian that includes Pat Buchanon, known for his WWII revisionism (blamed the war on Churchill, claimed much of the Holocaust didn’t happen) and his unquestioning support of Nazi-Collaborating Ukrainian Death Camp Guards (John Demjanjuk).[/quote]

Patty-Patty Buch Buch, your thoughts!

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it. [/quote]

Some.

Many of the protestors, and probably most of the leaders, are the Uke version of fascists/ultra-nationalists ---- with a fair number of Black Hundreds types on the other side, but still fascists.

Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” – purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”

Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.

So it’s kind of Communists vs. Uke Nazis. vs. Uke-Russian Nazis.

Not that I expect the MSM to figure that out.
[/quote]

See, and this is why I wanted people like you to chime in. All I know about this is from the NYTimes and other mainstream outlets so I have zero knowledge of what factions are in this, or where any of them lie on the political spectrum.

Sad.
[/quote]

This is a nice succinct piece.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/02/ukraine_s_crisis_is_a_struggle_between_russia_and_the_west_vladimir_putin.html

Russia just finally admitted they moved troops into Crimea. You know, labeled ones as opposed to the unadorned, rank free camouflage soldiers randomly filing into the region. Just to protect their fleet positions. Not like they can sail awau or anything. The ships are clearly aground and threatened by the civilians, so they need armor protection. And oh yes, attack helicopters for air protection.

Check the UK Telegraph, my phone is not liking the links

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like :frowning: about it. [/quote]

Some.

Many of the protestors, and probably most of the leaders, are the Uke version of fascists/ultra-nationalists ---- with a fair number of Black Hundreds types on the other side, but still fascists.

Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” – purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”

Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.

So it’s kind of Communists vs. Uke Nazis. vs. Uke-Russian Nazis.

Not that I expect the MSM to figure that out.
[/quote]

See, and this is why I wanted people like you to chime in. All I know about this is from the NYTimes and other mainstream outlets so I have zero knowledge of what factions are in this, or where any of them lie on the political spectrum.

Sad.
[/quote]

are any of you reading drudgereport.com or wnd.com on a regular basis as part of your wide scope of news?

it takes a couple of minutes to scan and gives you AP stories nytimes and huffingtonpost or yahoo generally omit.

When will we know the Russians have invaded Ukraine? We won’t.

Unlike the summer of 2008 when paratroop brigades crossed the border into Georgia’s sovereign territory under the pretext of aiding the Ossetian minority, marines of the Russian Black Sea Fleet are already stationed on Ukrainian soil.

The agreement between the two countries not only allows warships to be based at the port of Sevastopol, but also for Russian military vehicles to traverse the Crimean peninsula.


A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect Ukraine if President Putin’s troops cross into the country.

Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma - the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine - agreed to the The Budapest Memorandum as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union

Technically it means that if Russia has invaded Ukraine then it would be difficult for the US and Britain to avoid going to war.

Putin installed 150,000 troops along Ukraineâ??s borders after the overthrow of Moscow ally Viktor Yanukovych by pro-European protesters.

Drudge occasionally but not wnd. We already know they invaded, they’ve already moved troops in that weren’t stationed on the border. Troops, attack helicopters, and tanks. By default, an invasion because Ukrainian parliament opposed this move. If that didn’t give it away they blockaded Ukraine’s ships so…obviously not peacekeeping.

I copy and pasted this article so no one would have to contend with a paywall.

Summary:
At this point, it is still too soon to call events in Crimea anything other than a domestically led coup with Russian support. But that could change. If Putin launches a full-scale Russian invasion, he risks provoking battle with the relatively strong Ukrainian military, ethnic Ukrainian militias, and a furious Crimean Tatar minority group.
KIMBERLY MARTEN is Ann Whitney Olin Professor of Political Science at Barnard College, Columbia University.

My previous article on what Russia was likely to do in Ukraine described the costs of a Russian attempt at territorial aggrandizement. The title and subtitle were picked by the editors; my read on the situation did not give me certainty that Russia wouldn?t invade Crimea, and indeed I argued that an invasion was likely if there was violence against ethnic Russians there (which is why I urged the Ukrainian government not to rise to the bait by permitting or encouraging anti-Russian violence in Crimea).

Yesterday, however, several thousand masked men – who were widely believed to be private military contractors paid for and transported by Russia – seized government buildings and airports in Simferopol, Crimea?s capital, and around the Russian naval base in Sevastopol. They did so in support of Sergei Aksyonov, the long-standing leader of Crimea?s Russian Unity Party. The day before, an overwhelming majority in the Crimean parliament had voted him in as the region?s acting prime minister. Soon after, he asked for Russian security support. According to the Ukrainian press, Aksyonov was born in the then-Soviet region of neighboring Moldova, graduated from a Simferopol college in 1993, and has apparently spent most of his life in Crimea.

The process that put Aksyonov in power violated the Ukrainian constitution, since Kiev is supposed to appoint the regional prime minister. But then again, so did the process through which Oleksandr Turchynov became acting president of Ukraine, because, as Daisy Sindelar, a senior correspondent for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, has pointed out, former President Viktor Yanukovych?s ouster did not follow constitutional protocol. One can argue that the cases are somewhat equivalent: In both, parliamentary majorities supported a new leader.

At this point, it is too soon to call events in Crimea anything other than a domestically led coup with Russian support. But that could change. If Russian President Vladimir Putin now takes the opportunity to launch a full-scale Russian invasion, which his handpicked upper house of parliament authorized him to do by unanimous vote today, he risks unleashing hell. He will face a furious Crimean Tatar minority group, which has already started forming its own self-defense forces. He will risk provoking battle with the relatively strong Ukrainian military, as armed ethnic Ukrainian militias pour into Crimea from the rest of the country. He might also unleash violence between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians throughout the country, with demands from ethnic Russians for further Russian involvement in what will by then be a Ukrainian civil war.

Predicting human behavior is always a matter of probabilities. Up until now, Putin has consistently shown shrewd political judgment – but that doesn’t mean he always will. State leaders can make terrible errors, and Putin may be on the verge of making the worst mistake of his career by waltzing across the Ukrainian border.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Drudge occasionally but not wnd. We already know they invaded, they’ve already moved troops in that weren’t stationed on the border. Troops, attack helicopters, and tanks. By default, an invasion because Ukrainian parliament opposed this move. If that didn’t give it away they blockaded Ukraine’s ships so…obviously not peacekeeping.[/quote]

The elected Prime Minister of Crimea requested Russian security support. Marten is of the opinion that “at this point, it is still too soon to call events in Crimea anything other than a domestically led coup with Russian support.”