What Do You Think Of Kettlebells?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]lokate wrote:
So 2 times a week 5/3/1, sprints (several times a week) and mma training would be a much beter choiche?
Is it possble to combine 5/3/1 or the sprint in one workout with mma training?[/quote]

If I was you, I’d see what I could handle first.

It took me a long time - about six months - to build up to working out six days a week. I had to tone it back a couple times because I think I was genuinely overtraining and taking on overuse injuries.

Start with 5/3/1 and MMA, and work sprints in when you feel that you can. My two cents, at least.[/quote]

This, absolutely this. Do this.

It is very easy to get lost in trying to design and implement the perfect program. Do not fall into that trap. Perfection really is not the mission statement we should be using. Improvement is. Not what will be perfect, but what will make me better.

Do what FightinIrish said for the next 3 months. The plan being to become stronger than you are right now, with no new injuries. Adjust the program when needed, but not before.

lokate, I think I remember your old thread asking about EDT/ 5/3/1. If that was you I have a couple questions.

1.) What have you been doing between then and now?

2.) What is your height and weight?

3.) What are your strength levels? If you do not have true one rep maxes for squat, deadlift, overhead press, and bench what are honest, “heavy” sets?

Side note: I love kettlebells. They allow for less technique intensive cleaning and snatching. I just do not know if they are any better than other tools. I use them mainly because it lets me get some conditioning in that I do not hate.

Regards,

Robert A

22

Thank gys, I think its true, I can always add some things.
After the question about EDT I have tried 5/3/1 and stopped because, again, I read another great programm for martial artist.
So I am to much switching between routines, I know that. I think I will just start with the 5/3/1 and martial arts and then, if I feel like it, do some sprinting, very good advice.

My height 1,87 m and my weight is about 92 kilo. I am not fat if you are looking at me but I can see it myself when I look in the mirror that I have to much fat around the abdominals.
I am not strong, I cant go heavy with bench press for example I think 5 reps with 55 kilo orso is very heavy for me.
I can do pull-ups and dips ver good, I am strong in that.
Maybay you have more advice?

The biggest thing is that I have to stopp with looking for other mgical routines.
Thanks again.

23

some great advice so far above. as for my own experience with kettle bells, alot of the exercises people use them for like swings and snatches can be done with equal effect and a much reduced cost with dumbbells.

i fully support 531 even just the basic one posted here without buying the e book its a slow and constant progression where you see youself improving daily (one week i finished my set at 15 reps deadlift at 355 17 at 365) its really good for combat training because the assistance work is no bs and to the point and its not to taxing to hinder your training frequency is also good when it comes to strength training often less is more when you ad the taxation of other demands

as for spotters with dumbell exercises if your having trouble racking and unracking your bench do some “rack ems” they were in a rescent bench cure article. also in my experience not having a spotter can give you a little more motivation ahaha and in all honesty unless your doing really big weights you can handle the load once you fail ( when doing my current 1rm bench of 275 i failed on a second rep and rolled it to my waist and stood up with relative ease) if you are worried you can make a saftey cage out of two saw hourses or benches if your handy this will take you about half an hour to throw togeather. if squats are a fear point for you do front squats or overhead squats. if you lack a squat rack there is no problem except that the weights you use will be limited by your clean (which is great to improve any way)

as for cross fit the great kenny powers once said " HEY MAN I PLAY A REAL SPORT, IM NOT TRYIN TO BE THE BEST AT EXERCISING" the latter part of the sentance applys more

if you decide 531 isnt for you and want a really good powerlifting program i can give you the one my lifting coach dave walters (canadian bench press champion at his weight class) i always used it during my heaviest training and just cut the assistance exercises where i needed. its set up in excel so all you would need to do is plug in your numbers and go :wink:

sorry to be long winded im putting of throwing a layer of stain on my deck

24

Hello westdale warrior.

thanks for all the great advice. Yes, I think to, that Crossfit is not for me.
I will give the 5/3/1 a very good try, as you can see with my bench press for example, I am not that strong.
But, I like to see the powerlifting programm from you to.
So if you want off course you can post it here so everybody can maybay learn from it. or you can mail it to me. PM me for email address.

Very good quote by the way from Kenny Powers!
One more thing, off course I want to get stronger and I do think this will greatly work, but I dont want to be that big (no offense) as mr. Wendler himself.
I dont think that will be good for my martial arts. Is there a big change that you get much more bigger when you train, say for exmple, 2-3 years on this routine?

25

Wendler has been training for ages, you won’t get big unless you eat big. If you lift weights twice a week using 5/3/1 I’d say there is no way in hell you will be more than 90kg ripped any time soon if your bench numbers are what you explained earlier.

If you weight over 90kg with those strength levels, I’d say there is also a fair change that you need to put some attention to your nutrition if you want to look athletic (considering that’s your morning weight, not your weight after a solid meal and with your clothes on), there is no miracle routine that can take care of that, especially when you said you are a bit older of a lifter so your metabolism obviously isn’t working like it used to when you were 15.

Besides, I don’t know what kind of MA you do, but I’d say extra size wont hurt you if your number one goal is to be able to defend yourself in a street fight. Street fight doesn’t last very long, so you probably won’t gas out anyways, you probably don’t want to hit the concrete to grapple your offender and kicking isn’t great idea in the streets either because you put yourself in a position where your balance isn’t great when you kick, so you probably won’t lose enough mobility even if you grow in to the size of the likes of Mr. Wendler (and besides, good routine of stretches and mobility exercises should take care of your mobility even if you lift).

If you manage to keep your explosiveness, which you should if you train smart, even that won’t be a problem, and seriously, who the fuck even wants to take a swing at a guy who is the size of a truck lean and ripped?

26

Thank you very much Fiatiecuffs o clearing that up.
I was afraid that when you train that way you get buffy and thats not what I want to be.
Today I start with the workout, only one main exercise and two supplement exercises. See how it goes. I like it that when you do 3 sets off 5 the last have to be as much reps as you can.

True all these years that I practice martial arts I think what will work in a streetfight, so thats how I train and every mondayevening I teach a group off adults that kind off stuff :slight_smile:
I always was quit flexible so I have to maintan that. Kicking and punching and sparring ae no poblem to.

The only thing that was missing was a litle bit more strength so now I can build that up to.
Must honestly say that I never had any problem witht lesser strength. Most off the time when I spar or teach a technique its more my speed and experience that makes that I win most off the times and fights.
Oke, see how it goes now :slight_smile:
Thanks agaiin

27

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
If you read too much, you can easily get inundated with information about lifting, and much of it is conflicting because one coach has this gimmick and the other has his, whatever.

It’s part of the reason I like 5/3/1 - very simple and allows you to incorporate a lot into the supplementary training. Typically I have to cut mine back, because doing four exercises 5x10 leaves me too beat up to box.

This is my training log, you can see what I do regularly on here:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_log/log_o_the_irish?id=4426206&pageNo=0

Generally, I stick with doing one main exercise and its supplemental work on a given day, which draws the program out to twice its current length of four weeks. However, I also don’t take deload weeks with lifting, because of this.

So I’ll do military press on monday, the associated supplement work, Deadlift on Tuesday, the associated supplement work, and then hit rows the following Monday, and squats the following Tuesday.

Doing two main lifts in one session is too much with the amount of time I spend boxing. Keep in mind - and Wendler has said this - that if you’re a fighter, weightlifting is literally GPP. It’s a supplement. That’s it.

Focusing too much on lifting will detract from your ability to perform in the ring (or dojo) when it comes time for class/sparring/padwork whatever.

The good thing about 5/3/1 is that you’ll keep making progress, even though it will be markedly slower, on two days a week. And you’ll be able to accurately guage it as well. I really can’t speak highly enough of this program, it is probably, aside from Dan John’s OLAD, the best program I’ve ever done. [/quote]

good stuff Irish. glad to here the reference to Dan Johns OLAD! I am leaner that ever right now, but I was at my biggest “lean” when I trained at Crossfit Norcal for a year, (remember my “my crossfit experience” thread?) and if you look closely, I was pretty much doing Dan John’s OLAD program, followed by a met con WOD as a "finisher/conditioning thing.

Both %5/3/1 and OLAD like you said, are two of the best programs out there for people whos main focus is some sort of field or mat or other type of sport that is not weightlifting.

28

Thanks heavythrower.

I have readall off the questions again and think that 5/3/1 will be good choiche. But, I am very curious about the Dan John OLAD programm. Were can I get more infotmation about that routine, is it on INternet somewhere?
Not that I have a doubt for the 5/3/1 but just curious how it looks and what the differences are between these two routines.

29

I think you can do a search of it here on this site, go to “articles” then select “featured authors” and then, of course, select “Dan John”

30

here, did a little of the work for you…since I am NOT one of those flamming assholes who answer every question with “do a fucking search lazy ass newb!”

31

what I like especially about OLAD, as far as training for sport, is like what FightingIrish said, quoting from Jim Wendler: “if your sport is NOT weightlifting, then any weightlifting is just GPP”

no need to even think about “assistance exercises”.

the obsession with PL in this country and OL in the rest of the world has made a bit of an overcomplicated mess of things IMHO.

everybody is so focused on getting the big lifts better, SQ, DL, BP, C&J, Snatch, ect, that people who do not even compete in any of those lifts are obsessed with whatever assistance work/supplemental exercises that will make their numbers in those lifts better.

point is, If your sport is not weightlifting or Powerlifting, then the sq, bp, dl, clean, and snatch ARE THE ASSISTANCE EXERCISES.

OLAD for sport? simple. train your sport every day. after you have given that the priority, do one of the big lifts a few days a week with reasonable loading and programing, enough to make you stronger and progress, but not so much that it will take away your performance in your sport of choice.

32

Hey Heavythrower,

great that you alredy had find that thread, I am not that good with computers anyway. I cant even find were I can get in my PM section (by the way, do you know how I can get there?)

Great article, but, I have read it very quick but what I have read is that each workout takes about 45 minutes, thats long!

Espaccialy when you have train your martial arts for a hour or 1,5 hour.
And you have only one rest day in it if I have read it right?

Or do you maybay have a example off how a weekly workout could look like?)
How manny days a week and what kind off exercises for martial artist etc. or do you think that you have to follow the days and exercise eas discribed in that article?

And still then, I think 45 minutes is very long camparing 5/3/1 witch is only 2 times a week and dont take 45 minutes every workout.

33

[quote]lokate wrote:
Hey Heavythrower,

great that you alredy had find that thread, I am not that good with computers anyway. I cant even find were I can get in my PM section (by the way, do you know how I can get there?)

Great article, but, I have read it very quick but what I have read is that each workout takes about 45 minutes, thats long!

Espaccialy when you have train your martial arts for a hour or 1,5 hour.
And you have only one rest day in it if I have read it right?

Or do you maybay have a example off how a weekly workout could look like?)
How manny days a week and what kind off exercises for martial artist etc. or do you think that you have to follow the days and exercise eas discribed in that article?

And still then, I think 45 minutes is very long camparing 5/3/1 witch is only 2 times a week and dont take 45 minutes every workout.
[/quote]

5/3/1 HAD BETTER TAKE YOU AT LEAST 45 MINUTES, NO MATTER WHAT INCARNATION OF IT YOU DO.

Just because there are only three sets for the main lift DOES NOT mean that you can bitch out and not do any assistance work.

Yea, in the book, Wendler talks about the “I’m not doing jack shit” assistance work scheme, which is basically doing nothing other than the main lifts, but that’s for big, experienced lifters or if you’re REALLY squeezed on time.

Boxing and martial arts don’t give you an excuse to be a bitch about lifting. You will not make any progress in strength training if you don’t put in the same work you put in everywhere else.

OLAD can only be done as its written, but the low amount of overall volume mixed with high intensity lets you get away with doing just the one lift in a day and still making progress.

It may not be the perfect program for boxing/MMA because it is every day (or nearly so), but if you really think that that doing 6 sets of 3 or a 5/3/2 day is going to totally burn you out, I think you either need to reevaluate your work ethic or the size of your balls.

If, on the other hand, you don’t actually have the time lift every day while doing your MA, then stick with something you’re only going to do a couple days a week.

Again though, if you have no intent of making your days of lifting with 5/3/1 be work days, then don’t even bother.

34

Hey Fightinirish26

Thanks again for explaining. I know that 5/3/1 can take 45 minutes but its not everyday, thats what want to tell.
If the OLAD has to be done as written then I dont have any interest in it. Its way to much volume for me.

I will stick to the 5/3/1 it feels very good (have done the bench press yesterday with chins and push-ups as assistence because I like to do chins).

So I just was cuurious aboout another routine, thats all. But, I have to admitt, I almost felt in the trap to pay attention again to another routine again and that will not work, I know :frowning:

35

[quote]lokate wrote:
Hey Fightinirish26

Thanks again for explaining. I know that 5/3/1 can take 45 minutes but its not everyday, thats what want to tell.
If the OLAD has to be done as written then I dont have any interest in it. Its way to much volume for me.

I will stick to the 5/3/1 it feels very good (have done the bench press yesterday with chins and push-ups as assistence because I like to do chins).

So I just was cuurious aboout another routine, thats all. But, I have to admitt, I almost felt in the trap to pay attention again to another routine again and that will not work, I know :-([/quote]

They are both very good for athletes and the like because they are both very simple, and don’t rely much on all sorts of supplementary work - as HT said, a lot of guys will get caught up using chains and boards and all sorts of other shit, when really just doing simple lifts will help them in their sport.

Stick with 5/3/1 for a while, maybe a year, and then reevaluate where you’re at. I bet your numbers will be higher, and you will not regret it.

36

Thanks Fightinirish26,

I will do that and I am sure I will be a lott stronger then I am now. Thank for your patience to help me out and explaining the questions that I had.
Take care

37

lokate…just curious, where do you live and what is your primary language?

also, I would concur with what Irish is saying about work ethic.

here is a typical day for me when I was in college competing at a fairly high level in hammer and shot put.

morning(5-7amish) conditioning and foot work and technique drills, (hill springs, stair running, pushing a truck in neutral around the field)

mid morninging to late afternoon 9AM-2-3PM classes

4-6pm throwing practice, 20-40 throws at 60-80% after warmups.

6-7-8pm weightlifting, squats, jerks, cleans, deadlifts

9-2am work night shift at UPS loading trucks, bartending, bouncing, waiting tables, delivering pizzas, you name it.

OLAD is perfect for sport training. If you are a competitive fighter, you do not need to do zercher squats, box squats with chains, leg presses, lunges, RDL, etc. as assistance work to get your squat or deadlift better, the squat and deadlift IS YOUR ASSISTANCE WORK FOR YOUR SPORT.

I practiced every day and still managed to lift. did pretty good too. damn near 60foot shot putter.

edit…well, i looked back at some of my old stuff, not nearly as close to 60’ as I wish I was…never hit 60’ in a meet, averaged high 40’ low 50’ s in meets, I think I remember getting in the high 50’s a few times in practice.

38

how Dan John stretches OLAD to 45 minutes is beyond me…

I was pretty strong in my day…and it did not take too long for me to warm up then work up to 150-180kg in the clean for a few sets of singles or triples, then take a ice bath, hot shower then go to work.

39

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
how dan john stretches OLAD to 45 minutes is beyond me…
[/quote]

Very true as well. It always took me less than a half hour

40

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
how Dan John stretches OLAD to 45 minutes is beyond me…

I was pretty strong in my day…and it did not take too long for me to warm up then work up to 150-180kg in the clean for a few sets of singles or triples, then take a ice bath, hot shower then go to work. [/quote]

I would have to see the quote where he did. But lets keep in mind Dan John is a big proponent of the “if it’s important do it every day / Coach Gable warmup” so 45 min gym time with OLAD might be:

Loosen up / Warm up - I think I have to call it a dynamic warmup to be cool, but for me this is the part where I look silly and try to convince myself that the nagging stuff is ok and the too tight parts are loose “enough” to not snap and the “too loose” stuff isn’t going to fall off.

Shoulder Warm up (dislocates, ext rot, etc.)- Wait I meant activation exercises

Pull ups- 3 sets of 8 (if not done weighted as an OLAD day)

Overhead Squats w/ PVC

Some kind of Ab work

THEN

Work up to the work sets in the power snatch.

So maybe 15 min of warmup, 5 min to set up the bar and clear an area, 20 min of Workin the Power Snatch (great movie by the way.) thats about 40 min of floor time.

Regards,

Robert A